PODCAST: Leadership is just Relationships with Bob Woolverton | THE INTERVIEW ROOM | Episode 039

The Interview Room
Written By Wayne Mulder
On The Blue Line Podcast show image with Wayne Mulder and guest Bob Wolverton

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Leadership is just Relationships with Bob Woolverton | THE INTERVIEW ROOM | Episode 039

Image of Bob Woolverton with Top Tier Leadership Training

Bob Woolverton

Founder, Top Tier Leadership Training

Meet this Weeks Guest: Bob Woolverton

Our guest today is Bob Woolverton.  Bob spent 34 years working in law enforcement in a suburb northeast of Seattle.  80% of that time was spent in upper-level management positions. He is a graduate of the FBI National Academy in Quantico, VA, and holds both a Bachelor's degree and a Master's degree in management & leadership. Bob has been a leadership instructor for the Washington State Criminal Justice Training Commission since 2012 and is the author of the book titled, The Part of Leadership No One Talks About.

Bob currently owns and operates his own leadership training company known as, Top Tier Leadership Training (TopTierLeadershipTraining.com) where his focus is on providing the knowledge, skills, and ability to anyone who wants to be in the top 20% of leaders who are truly inspirational leaders.  Bob’s personal motto is Lead, Teach, and Inspire.

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TRANSCRIPTION OF EPISODE. Please note this is a new service we are offering and there will be spelling, grammar and accuracy issues. This transcription is offered as a convenience to our listeners, but at this time it is not guaranteed to be accurate.

00:00:02:14 - 00:00:35:00

Wayne Mulder

Hey everyone, welcome to another on the Blue Line podcast. I am your host, Wayne Mulder, and I'm excited to be back with you yet again today. I hope you've been enjoying the last two weeks. We've had some really great episodes. If you haven't listened to those two interview room episodes, go back and check them out. I assure you it's going to be worth your time and I'm assuring you you're going to enjoy them.

00:00:35:22 - 00:00:54:55

Wayne Mulder

Please, please, please. If you're watching this on YouTube, whatever video service you're watching it on, please leave us a comment. Please be sure to subscribe to the channel and I would like to hear your feedback. To be honest with me, be brutally honest. Hey, do this, do that. I like this. I hate that. Let us know. That's the one way we improve is to hear from you, those of you who are consuming the content.

00:00:54:55 - 00:01:18:00

Wayne Mulder

And I think each and every one of you this week is another interview room. Those are different than the morning calls. The interview room releases every Thursday, and then that one, like today's. I sit down with a different expert. They don't have to be in the law enforcement field. But what I do look for is something actionable that all of us, law enforcement and non law enforcement can either be made aware of.

00:01:18:00 - 00:01:37:08

Wayne Mulder

We can learn from or something actionable that we can do in the weeks ahead. The other podcast that is coming out is Morning Roll Call. Those come out on Mondays and those are just me and you sitting down and just discussing the week ahead. And I'm hoping that you're going to be seeing more of those on a more frequent basis than just once a week.

00:01:37:21 - 00:02:10:04

Wayne Mulder

However, those are future plans and for now, let's just try to get done what we're doing. So without taking any more time, let me tell you today, this interview is all about leadership. So I don't care who you are. If you are a corporate position on up to executive leadership or if you work in the private sector. The things we are going to talk about today are not only actionable, they are going to save you as a supervisor, possibly keep you out of trouble, keep you out of the national news, and completely change your organization for the better.

00:02:10:04 - 00:02:28:49

Wayne Mulder

And if you think that's hyperbolic, I challenge you. Listen to this entire podcast, listen to this entire interview. And I can guarantee you that if you take the truth and the experience to heart that this week's guest gives us, it will make a substantial difference when it comes to leadership in your life. So that's my challenge for you.

00:02:28:49 - 00:02:50:04

Wayne Mulder

Let me tell you who is the guest. Well, the guest is Bob Woolverton. He spent 34 years working in law enforcement in a suburb of northeast of Seattle. 80% of that time was in upper level management positions. And he's going to go into his experience and how he learned the lessons that he shares with us today. He was a graduate of the FBI National Academy in Quantico.

00:02:50:20 - 00:03:12:21

Wayne Mulder

He holds a bachelor's degree and a master's degree in management and leadership. And he teaches and is an instructor at the Washington State Criminal Justice Training Commission, specifically talking about leadership. One thing we did not discuss in the podcast, but I will be sure to link up in the show notes, so be sure to check it out. Is his book that he authored the part of Leadership No One Talks About?

00:03:12:41 - 00:03:28:08

Wayne Mulder

I do extensively in the podcast, talk about a LinkedIn article that he had written that he goes into a lot of the points from. And again, that is a great article. If you are in any sort of leadership level at all, I can tell you I picked up some things out of there that I will be implementing in my own life.

00:03:28:28 - 00:03:47:56

Wayne Mulder

So please again check out the show notes for that link. Bob currently owns and operates his leadership training company known as Top Tier Leadership Training, and his focus is on providing the knowledge, skills and ability to anyone who wants to be in the top 20% of leaders who are truly inspirational leaders. And that's what today is all about.

00:03:47:56 - 00:03:53:33

Wayne Mulder

So without taking any more time, here's this week's guest, Bob Woolverton.

00:03:57:45 - 00:03:59:11

Wayne Mulder

All right, Bob. Well, welcome to the show.

00:04:00:12 - 00:04:02:34

Bob Woolverton

Well, good morning, Wayne. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

00:04:03:03 - 00:04:11:40

Wayne Mulder

Absolute. I'm glad we could make this work. First time we tried to do it, my internet here at the house wasn't playing so nice, so I'm glad we were able to make the day work.

00:04:13:04 - 00:04:19:04

Bob Woolverton

Yeah, the scheduling is so easy whether you got to set up online. It was. I think it took me 10 seconds to reschedule.

00:04:20:04 - 00:04:22:38

Wayne Mulder

Well, the advantages of modern technology, right?

00:04:22:51 - 00:04:23:23

Bob Woolverton

Exactly.

00:04:23:56 - 00:04:36:52

Wayne Mulder

Well, let's start with I always ask these. Get to know your questions. As we were talking off air, I took them out once and then people started complaining. So for you, the listeners, let me ask these. Get to know your questions so we can get to know Bob a little better. So, Bob, coffee or tea?

00:04:37:51 - 00:04:38:41

Bob Woolverton

Coffee. Black.

00:04:39:09 - 00:04:47:16

Wayne Mulder

Okay. That is the right answer, though. My last two guest and the listeners will know this have both been iced tea, so I'm happy to hear a fellow coffee drinker again.

00:04:48:41 - 00:04:49:03

Bob Woolverton

Do you have.

00:04:49:03 - 00:04:50:34

Wayne Mulder

A favorite place to drink that coffee.

00:04:52:13 - 00:05:11:00

Bob Woolverton

Any more? It's at home, you know, used to when I was working, you know, Starbucks every day, you know, sort of thing. It was it was the habit, you know, on the way to work. And then somewhere in the middle of the day, usually. But now, you know, it's just out of the Keurig, the little K-Cups that you buy at Costco and on my back deck under and a beautiful sunny morning I love that.

00:05:11:36 - 00:05:28:30

Wayne Mulder

It's awesome and I find that, you know, you mentioned the sunny morning in the back deck and I find that to be typically with coffee drinkers, there is a spot that they enjoy just sitting there and sipping that coffee. So that's great to hear. Do you have a best or worst travel story?

00:05:28:30 - 00:05:32:03

Bob Woolverton

Actually, that's it's all the same story. Yeah.

00:05:32:16 - 00:05:32:42

Wayne Mulder

Okay.

00:05:32:58 - 00:05:33:36

Bob Woolverton

All in one.

00:05:33:36 - 00:05:34:53

Wayne Mulder

So many things in life, right?

00:05:35:19 - 00:05:53:00

Bob Woolverton

Yeah. All in one trip. I actually had taken a trip to Italy and I had a flight coming back that was going from Rome to the Netherlands. And it was leaving Rome early in the morning. But I knew once between the Netherlands back to Seattle, you know, I wanted to sleep on that flight, so I stayed up really late.

00:05:53:00 - 00:06:10:54

Bob Woolverton

The flight was leaving really early in the morning and we get to the Rome airport like 5:00 in the morning, maybe 6:00 in the morning, something like that. And we get on the plane. But we're we're flying into the Netherlands. It's fogged in so they won't let us depart. Rome. So we're sitting on the tarmac for hours. And they finally said, okay, the fog cleared, we can depart.

00:06:10:55 - 00:06:31:46

Bob Woolverton

Well, now we've missed our connecting flight, as did thousands of other people. So you are in this major European hub with thousands of people standing in line trying to reschedule flights. And I'm exhausted because I've only had like 2 hours of sleep. Yeah, I'm sure all the hotels around the airport are all booked now because everybody's booked rooms, you know, where am I going to say, you know, till tomorrow's flight sort of thing in this line?

00:06:32:16 - 00:06:49:10

Bob Woolverton

And literally, I think I've been in line for four or 5 hours, but the line for the first class passengers, there's like only one or two people in it. Well, then my wife decided, you know what, I'm going to go get in that line. And sure enough, they accepted her. She got her tickets rebooked. We found a place to stay for the night, went got some sleep, come back the next day and it's a nine hour flight.

00:06:49:10 - 00:07:02:45

Bob Woolverton

And I'm thinking, you know, I don't like to be on the plane any longer than I have to be. And so I'm always the last person on the plane. So I go finally go to board the plane and I've got my ticket in hand. I go to turn right to go to my seat in the. No, no, no, turn left.

00:07:02:45 - 00:07:21:00

Bob Woolverton

You're up in the front of the plane. They had booked us into business class nine or this nine hour flight. You know, this these are the seats that like like totally flat. I mean, they're they're are so comfortable, the most comfortable flight I've ever had. So what turned to this this nightmare I had no sleep in or I was going to stage spent hours in line the very next day.

00:07:21:19 - 00:07:29:34

Bob Woolverton

Oh, my gosh. The most luxurious flight I've ever had back when I landed in Seattle. And 9 hours later, I still did not want to get off the plane. Who was that comfortable?

00:07:29:56 - 00:07:39:19

Wayne Mulder

That is great. That's a great story. And I think there might be a life lesson in there somewhere, too, when things go completely downhill, but something good can happen.

00:07:39:27 - 00:07:39:41

Bob Woolverton

Yeah.

00:07:40:40 - 00:07:47:11

Wayne Mulder

Let me ask you one last question. Do you have a favorite or most meaningful nonfiction book?

00:07:47:11 - 00:08:18:34

Bob Woolverton

Oh, gosh. You know, probably the most I would say the most influential nonfiction book. Well, let's see. Would that be nonfiction? Let me think a second. Yeah, I guess it's not. It's nonfiction is actually is written by the Harbinger Institute. It's called Leadership and Self-deception Getting out of the Box. Okay. As far as my leadership journey, I was probably the most influential book that really changed the way that I looked at leadership, and they've got a prequel to that book also.

00:08:18:34 - 00:08:35:24

Bob Woolverton

And Harbinger Institute had actually worked with some law enforcement agencies also and has done some phenomenal work. And so on. The early steps of my law enforcement journey, that was probably the most influential book and I recommend it to everybody. Even the classes I teach, I still recommend that book. And basically what it says, what it says is, look in the mirror.

00:08:35:43 - 00:08:39:00

Bob Woolverton

You know, if you're having leadership issues, maybe you should be looking in the mirror.

00:08:39:37 - 00:08:58:08

Wayne Mulder

That's good advice. I will check that out. And we're going to talk a lot about leadership today because that's obviously something that not only do you have experience and but something you're helping with. But let's go ahead and we'll go back just a little bit to kind of your story. You mentioned law enforcement, so I know that's part of it, but I believe you kind of grew up in a law enforcement family as well.

00:08:58:37 - 00:09:20:04

Bob Woolverton

Yeah, absolutely. I'm second generation law enforcement. My dad retired from the Seattle Police Department and I got hired by a suburb of Seattle. I didn't go to work for the city of Seattle itself, but in the general area and I did 34 years there in law enforcement and I was promoted relatively fast. We were a small agency when I hired in and we grew quickly.

00:09:20:04 - 00:09:39:03

Bob Woolverton

So it wasn't so much that I was so such a superstar. I was just kind of in the right time, at the right place, you know, sort of thing and so as I promoted, you know, you start on this leadership journey and and I really believe that everybody, you know, they want to be a good leader. You know, that's why you get promoted, because you want to do a good job at whatever job you accept.

00:09:39:30 - 00:09:57:21

Bob Woolverton

And the reality of it is, as we know from gosh, there was a survey done back in like 2013 and a Gallup poll, and I think that's the famous one. Everybody knows where. They said basically 50% of everybody surveyed had quit a bad boss. You know, they say they don't a person doesn't leave a company. They leave a bad boss sort of thing.

00:09:57:39 - 00:10:21:09

Bob Woolverton

Right. And there was another survey done by another company in 2017 that had doubled the number of people surveyed, and that number had gone up to 57%. But the thing that was more interesting in that to me was so the 57% that quit one or more bad bosses, but another 32% wanted to quit a bad boss. You know, so well over 80% of people, you know, either have or want to quit a bad boss.

00:10:21:41 - 00:10:43:42

Bob Woolverton

And when you look at that, you think, well, you know, with all of these bestselling leadership books that we have, how can we be struggling so much with leadership? Well, in my leadership journey, you know, when I first started taking leadership classes back in oh, probably the late eighties, you know, leadership studies were still relatively new. You know, academics were still figuring out what is leadership.

00:10:43:42 - 00:11:03:23

Bob Woolverton

You know, there were they were going through traits, theory, you know, what traits does a great leader have, you know? And, you know, so all of these progressions that we went through, well, when I first started my leadership classes, they focused on things like planning and organizing, directing and controlling, and they called those leadership classes. But as we well know now, those are management classes.

00:11:03:48 - 00:11:04:15

Wayne Mulder

Right.

00:11:04:24 - 00:11:23:56

Bob Woolverton

Now. I'm a great student. I was a great manager, but a leader. I mean, there was a lot of work to be done there, right? But when it came to numbers and systems and that sort of stuff and I was I was a good manager, but as I progressed, I needed to become a good leader. And that's what I really struggled with.

00:11:24:12 - 00:11:41:58

Bob Woolverton

And so I'm doing what most everybody does from reading the bestselling leadership books and, you know, trying to take clues from that, applying it to the real, real life world. And then I started finding other people that I worked with, you know, around the watercooler, the lunchroom sort of thing. And they're reading books and we're sharing ideas and how, you know, we're applying it or how we find it applicable in the real life world.

00:11:42:25 - 00:11:59:52

Bob Woolverton

And so then we started Leadership Book Club, and so we got all the people everywhere, you know, in becoming a better leader, there were interest in promoting and we would meet after work and we pick a book and then of course, you know, shift work. Not everybody can make every meeting. So I was keeping a blog on the side so people could keep up to speed with the progress of the club.

00:12:01:19 - 00:12:29:38

Bob Woolverton

And I remember, you know, looking back in hindsight, after we'd probably read maybe ten or 12 leadership books, one of the guys that I worked with was coming into a meeting because, you know, leadership is just relationships. And at the time, I thought that was so profound because it perfectly summarized all the leadership books we read, because all of those books focused on the interpersonal relationship between the leader and the follower, which was definitely one of my weaknesses.

00:12:29:38 - 00:12:55:10

Bob Woolverton

Yeah, that's one of the things I definitely needed to work on. But now roll the clock ahead. A number of years at age 52, I go back to colleges, tuition reimbursement that the department supplied, use that tuition reimbursement to get my bachelor's degree and my master's degree in management and leadership. And what I learned is that that interpersonal relationship is really important.

00:12:55:35 - 00:13:22:58

Bob Woolverton

But what I have figured out that we're missing in leadership is that direction and that vision in essence, because I had five police chiefs over my 34 year career, they were all great people. Everybody loved them. They were very charismatic. But one stood out, head and shoulders above everybody else is a fabulous leader, actually, I should say I had 5.5 chiefs because we had one chief who was fired for dishonesty and we had an interim chief until we hired the next full time chief.

00:13:22:58 - 00:13:41:16

Bob Woolverton

Right. Yeah. And so when we hired that interim chief, actually, we borrowed him from a neighboring agency and he would only come in part time, two or three days a week would come in and then he was gone. But so much got done. And I was a brand new lieutenant at the time. And looking back, I wish I would have had more time to spend with him as a leader to figure out how he did it.

00:13:41:16 - 00:14:02:02

Bob Woolverton

But what I realized, looking back is he would come in and say what he wanted accomplished, and then he'd say, I'll be back next week, get it done. And you'd use your own ingenuity, figure out how to get it done. I mean, how empowering is that? Right. And that's that same quote from General George Patton. You know, General George Patton had that quote is habitually don't tell people what to do or tell them how to do things.

00:14:02:02 - 00:14:13:22

Bob Woolverton

Tell them what you want them to accomplish and then get out of their way in their ingenuity. William is you, right? That's exactly what this guy did. You know, he would come in and say, I want this done, this done and this done. You know, accomplished this by the time I get back next week. And it got done.

00:14:13:22 - 00:14:28:24

Bob Woolverton

And it was so amazing. When you look back, things just got done so much more effectively than I had in the previous seven years that I worked there. And like I say, I wish I had more time with that guy. Now, the chief we hired after that, which is the one that I say stood head and shoulders above everybody else.

00:14:29:15 - 00:14:50:47

Bob Woolverton

He was mentored by that guy that we used as the interim chief. So that interim chief was his mentor. Okay. Now, when I look back and this one chief that we had that stood up head and shoulders with everybody else, what did he do different? He had a vision of how he was going to change our organization, how he was going to make it better, basically what we aspired to become as an organization.

00:14:50:47 - 00:15:10:10

Bob Woolverton

And he got everybody on board with it. We were so proud to be working where we worked. We had, you know, shirts that are logos embroidered on a shirt. We had, you know, sweat gear for working out that had our agency name on a sleeve and on the side of the leg. I mean, everybody was on board with where we were going and what we were creating because he had a vision that says this is where we are going.

00:15:11:47 - 00:15:35:18

Bob Woolverton

The other chiefs and I even had once you say, you know, I just I just want everybody to get along, there was no direction. Just answer the nine one calls, you know, solve the cases sort of thing. And but there was no direction as far as how we were solving things. Yeah. And I had another chief where I mean as the executive staff we kept using terms like the squirrel syndrome because every week there was a new priority, you know, there was a new fire to put out.

00:15:35:18 - 00:15:36:37

Wayne Mulder

Sort of thing was in law enforcement.

00:15:36:45 - 00:16:02:11

Bob Woolverton

Object syndrome, you know, those sorts of things. But when you have somebody that focuses on, focuses the organization on what they aspired to accomplish or aspire to become as an organization, and people believe in that vision. That's where that intrinsic motivation comes from. That's where people come to work. And because they are contributing to something greater than themselves or contributing to something meaningful, and that's what we all want well, want to contribute to something meaningful, you know.

00:16:02:11 - 00:16:18:19

Bob Woolverton

So that's when I look back at that portion of the story, you know, when I look at that chief and why he was so much better is because that vision and I see the same sort of thing with other law enforcement executives that I respect, and there's several of them that I would just wish I could clone them throughout the industry.

00:16:18:19 - 00:16:38:00

Bob Woolverton

Let's take a corner, this guy, and put him everywhere, you know, sort of thing, because they are they've got that vision and and they are able to get people on board with that vision of what they're creating in the organization. But the interesting thing is, so I teach a 40 hour class, the Washington State Criminal Justice Training Commission, and I cotija with a couple other instructors and one of the instructors that I cottage with.

00:16:38:00 - 00:16:59:31

Bob Woolverton

He's got a Venn diagram that he puts them on the screen. And then one of the circles is all the characteristics of a leader and the other circles, all the characteristics of a manager and then a few that overlap in the Venn diagram. Right? So the exercises he asks the students to says of the best leaders that you've ever worked for, pick some of their characteristics off of these lists and then let's talk about it.

00:17:01:01 - 00:17:21:12

Bob Woolverton

Nobody ever I mean, this has been going on for like ten plus years. Nobody ever picks vision off of the list because they don't see it mentored in the workplace interest. And that's where we and especially in law enforcement, that's where we learn our leadership skills is from those that preceded us. We model our behaviors of those generations before us generally, unless it's really bad.

00:17:21:12 - 00:17:47:16

Bob Woolverton

So I'm never going to be like that guy, you know, we've all been there, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's a really interesting phenomenon to me, especially in our industry, although I have found now working with private sector businesses that it's not so unique. A vision is kind of a lost concept, but that vision is when you look at some of the best, whether they're tech leaders or military leaders, when there was a vision and a mission to be accomplished and they inspired people to do that.

00:17:47:16 - 00:17:59:13

Bob Woolverton

I mean, even with Steve Jobs from Apple, I mean, he had a reputation of what as I as I read in a book one time of verbally eviscerating people for their bad ideas. I mean, that's not good interpersonal skills, right?

00:17:59:16 - 00:17:59:47

Wayne Mulder

Not at all.

00:17:59:47 - 00:18:22:57

Bob Woolverton

He had a vision of what that company was going to create and how they were going to change the world. And people were inspired by that vision. And still, to this day, people love working at Apple because they feel they're contributing to something that's changing the world. They're contributing to something meaningful. When we look at law enforcement, there is actually years and years ago I went to some leadership training in Las Vegas.

00:18:22:58 - 00:18:42:39

Bob Woolverton

The instructor was from an organization in Florida. And I remember him saying to this day that when he first got hired and he was going to go to the academy, he called his uncle, who was a judge in Florida, you know, so I got hired to be a police officer and his uncle. The judge told him, he said, if you do this job properly, you will.

00:18:42:55 - 00:19:09:57

Bob Woolverton

There is nothing ever you will do this more noble with your life, nothing more noble that you will do with your life. But the key is if you do the job properly, you know, so when we think about what we do in law enforcement, the service that we provide, the service we provide to the community, the nobility of that is amazing what we're contributing to, you know, the intrinsic motivation of why we do what we do is what inspires people, you know, to stick it out even through some of the worst times that we've gone through lately.

00:19:10:22 - 00:19:29:07

Bob Woolverton

Right. But sometimes we lose track of that. And that's where it's really important, I think, with our even with our civilian staff, you know, our record staff, that maybe they're doing that entry all day or something like that. And it's you know, I could see that would seem really boring, but the reality of it is the organization couldn't exist without them, right?

00:19:29:09 - 00:19:43:57

Bob Woolverton

We couldn't do our mission without them. So we need to make sure we keep them connected to that idea. You know, there's a and I don't know if this is a real story or if it's just urban legend. But in the leadership circles, there's a story of when President Kennedy basically challenged the country to put a man on the moon.

00:19:43:57 - 00:20:04:19

Bob Woolverton

And so during this process, as you know, NASA's developing new metals and stuff because we didn't have the the metals that it took to get a man to the moon hadn't even been invented yet. So this was quite a challenge. Right. So the story goes that President Kennedy went down to Nassau to visit the National Space Center. And as he's walking around, he comes across this employee and he happens to accidentally utter, so what do you do here?

00:20:04:19 - 00:20:26:02

Bob Woolverton

It Nasser and the man stood up, probably speaking to the president, United States. And he goes, Mr. President, I'm helping to put a man on the moon. Well, that person's job title was janitor, so he's not at the pointy end of the rock and he's not pushing the launch button. But he understands his contribution of keeping the workplace clean and safe and orderly is just as important as everything else.

00:20:26:02 - 00:20:45:45

Bob Woolverton

And that's where in my classes I use. The example of our organizations are like the internal workings of a clock, and the mission of a clock is to display the time of day. But when you turn it over and open up every cog and wheel and spring has a different function, and if any one of those cogs, wheels or springs doesn't do its function, the whole machine comes to a grinding halt.

00:20:46:21 - 00:21:03:36

Bob Woolverton

And that's where, you know, as managers and as leaders, we've got to keep our our our people that have some of the more mundane tasks, what seem to be the more mundane tasks engaged in or the importance of what they're contributing to, is that, yeah, they may not be out on the street putting handcuffs on people or making the community safer for people.

00:21:03:52 - 00:21:21:48

Bob Woolverton

But what they're doing is vital because it wouldn't be in our wouldn't be in our budget, it wouldn't be on the payroll if it wasn't vitally important because somebody in management similar had to make a sales pitch to either your city or county council. We need this position to survive to get it funded forever. You know, employee salaries are in your budget forever unless you, you know, have to go through budget cuts and layoffs.

00:21:22:01 - 00:21:33:41

Bob Woolverton

Right. So that's a huge commitment. So somebody had to do a sales pitch. We absolutely need this position as managers and leaders. We can't lose track of that with the people that have some of what we would consider some of the more mundane jobs.

00:21:34:30 - 00:21:57:55

Wayne Mulder

That is so important. And something that, like you said, I think gets lost. I've even seen it where sometimes they lose that importance in that focus with positions we all would argue are extremely important, such as frontline patrol and so forth. I mean, sometimes at agencies the focus becomes more of the investigative positions or swap positions, tactical positions and so forth, which are all vitally important.

00:21:57:55 - 00:22:04:10

Wayne Mulder

And we lose we seem to lose that focus that without patrol, you're not a law enforcement agency no matter where you're at.

00:22:04:37 - 00:22:20:29

Bob Woolverton

Yeah, absolutely. Excuse me. Well, you know, it's interesting because not so much lately, but I'd say, you know, 3 to 8 years ago, while I'm teaching my classes, one of the biggest complaints that I would hear from the middle managers is they're coming up. They're going, oh, these darn millennials, you know, they're not even out of probation yet.

00:22:20:29 - 00:22:33:59

Bob Woolverton

And they want to know, when do I get to go to SWAT? When do I get to go to CSI and all that's all the high action stuff, right? And so I started showing them their recruitment videos like what are you advertising? You're struggling.

00:22:34:06 - 00:22:34:53

Wayne Mulder

Psychological.

00:22:35:16 - 00:22:44:33

Bob Woolverton

Yeah, exactly. You know, SWAT motorcycles, rappelling out of helicopters, all the stuff you know, you're doing the bait and switch. Yeah. Oh, you don't do any of that for another ten years. Yeah.

00:22:45:05 - 00:22:46:55

Wayne Mulder

Yeah. You got a lot of reports to write between.

00:22:46:55 - 00:22:49:08

Bob Woolverton

Here and there.

00:22:49:08 - 00:23:02:06

Wayne Mulder

No, that's so true. Now, just for context, so everyone can kind of understand your experience during your career, you were able to go from pretty much line supervision on up to an executive position. Is that my understanding while you were there? Yeah.

00:23:02:24 - 00:23:21:32

Bob Woolverton

Yeah. I retired as a as a police captain. I did 34 years and 80% of my career was supervision and higher at year four, promoted to first level supervision. Year seven, I promoted to lieutenant and shortly thereafter to captain. And and that's where I ended my career as a captain in my agency. When I first hired in, I was officer number eight.

00:23:21:57 - 00:23:42:54

Bob Woolverton

Wow. Now and now we have over a hundred officers, you know, so there was a lot of rapid growth. Of course, when I hired in, the only computer we had was the dumb terminal that connected to the State Crime Information Center, you know, the green monochrome screen, everything else was typewriters and handwritten, you know, sort of stuff. So I was very instrumental in moving into the computer age.

00:23:42:54 - 00:24:03:32

Bob Woolverton

I used to do budget spreadsheets and Lotus one, two, three in DOS and thank goodness Windows came along that graphical user interface, you know, and you know, just the progression there of, you know, we used to contract out for computer services, you know, on our network and then, you know, we grew enough that basically we were able to bring in-house i.t staff, you know, that sort of thing, get an in-house prosecutor.

00:24:03:32 - 00:24:25:13

Bob Woolverton

I mean, all those growth issues that we went through, you know, we went from serving a population of 6000 to population of 40,000. So, you know, huge growth. And, you know, and with that, you know, it's the leadership demand is was the critical part and especially for me because like I say, I had a nickname because I was like I say, I was so management driven and I was so numbers driven.

00:24:25:46 - 00:24:46:13

Bob Woolverton

These refer to me as robo bob, you know. And so as a captain, you know, I had I had to figure out, you know, how do I get rid of this numbers driven reputation and to be more of a leader that inspires people. And actually, that's my my motto. Lead, teach and inspire. Right.

00:24:46:13 - 00:24:47:58

Wayne Mulder

And which I love that motto, by the way.

00:24:48:27 - 00:25:11:07

Bob Woolverton

Provide the direction, you know. And so I've got these three responsibilities I refer to as kind of the initial step to leadership. I call it better How to Be a Better Boss, but they also relate to leadership, and then we can get into the leadership aspect. But as far as being a better boss, there's three responsibilities that come with every promotion, whether it's first level supervision, middle management or the executive level.

00:25:11:34 - 00:25:32:11

Bob Woolverton

And the first responsibility is to start focusing on outcomes. Now, we know in our industry, and I've seen it in the private sector as well, the people that are really great technicians, they're the ones that get promoted, you know, because they do that job so well and then they get promoted and they're still in that technician mode. They're not having made the transition to that manager leader mode yet.

00:25:32:40 - 00:25:48:09

Bob Woolverton

And so they're still telling people, you know, and since I use the term carpenter because I can relate to it, they're telling the carpenter how many holes of drill and how many nails they hammer, you know, rather than, Oh, I'm the supervisor now, build me a wall or build me a home, get out of their way and let their ingenuity amaze you.

00:25:48:09 - 00:25:51:09

Bob Woolverton

Right, right. And and so.

00:25:51:28 - 00:26:03:09

Wayne Mulder

And in some cases, it's not even just playing off that analogy real quick. It's not even so much telling them how many holes and stuff. Sometimes they have the hammer and nail in their hand and it's like, No, you need to step away for a moment. But anyway, go after.

00:26:03:17 - 00:26:22:39

Bob Woolverton

Yeah, exactly. Step aside. I'll take, I'll handle this one, you know, sort of thing. Yeah, exactly. So you've got to get out of the mindset to start focusing on results. So and that's applicable at the first level, supervisory level, middle management. Now you're so at the first level of supervision, you're responsible for the outcomes or outputs of your team or your squad, middle management.

00:26:22:40 - 00:26:41:42

Bob Woolverton

You're responsible for the outcomes or outputs of a division, maybe multiple divisions. And then at the executive level, you're responsible for the outcomes of the entire organization, you know, and that's where you know, you start focusing, you get away from that technician. And I and I see it a lot. It's, you know, as we've promoted through the ranks and, you know, now we've been up in the executive level.

00:26:41:42 - 00:27:03:28

Bob Woolverton

We're in the White ivory tower, you know, for so long. We still think we know how things are done on the street. And let me tell you, if you've been off the street for any period of time, trust me, things are different. And I use a phrase I call the 12 foot rule and that if you have a problem somewhere, the person within 12 feet of the problem should be involved in solving that problem because they know that problem better than anybody.

00:27:04:03 - 00:27:19:19

Bob Woolverton

And so if I think I'm in the ivory tower, oh, I did that 20 years ago. Here's the answer and I send it down the line. Probably not going to be the best solution. Plus it doesn't create an engagement. And then when it does get to the line, they're going, what the heck is he thinking? You know, this isn't going to work, you know, sort of thing.

00:27:19:44 - 00:27:37:33

Bob Woolverton

And so you've got it. You've got to utilize that, that 12 foot rule. The second responsibility that I talk about is facilitating the success of your people, and that is such a huge thing. You got to make sure they've got the knowledge, skills and ability. So when you tell them, Build me a wall, you've got to make sure they've got the right tools.

00:27:37:55 - 00:27:55:57

Bob Woolverton

You know that they've been trained properly on how to do that. They've got all the tools that they need so that you can step back and allow them to use their ingenuity. And then the third responsibility is to safeguard their welfare, make sure they've got a safe environment, make sure that they've got the proper safety equipment and so on, because we want them to go home to their families at night.

00:27:56:24 - 00:28:15:09

Bob Woolverton

And just doing those three things because there was a gentleman from one of my neighborhood agencies, he used to teach classes at the academy to clerical staff for years and years and years. And every time he did a class, he did a survey and he asked the employees, What are the top two complaints about your organization? Now, this is not a scientific survey or anything like this, but he did it for a long period of time.

00:28:15:34 - 00:28:35:42

Bob Woolverton

And after a period of time, he said, you know, I can categorize 80% of the complaints into two categories. That's micromanagement and lack of direction. Yep. Well, we've already talked about those two, that micromanagement step back, let the people do the work, focus on the results right? Yep. And then lack of direction. That's that vision thing. What do we what do we aspire to accomplish?

00:28:35:58 - 00:28:55:19

Bob Woolverton

You know, where are we going? What are we trying to do? And one of the exercises that I used that that your listeners can use as a quick test is in my classes. I will ask know in my classes I usually have middle managers all the way up to chiefs and sheriffs, and I will ask them to list on a piece of paper what are the top 3 to 5 priorities of your organization?

00:28:56:24 - 00:29:14:24

Bob Woolverton

And literally, I've had to captains from the same organization sitting next to each other, and there's a brief pause. They look each other and they burst out laughing because they know they're not going to write down the same answer. Wow. And generally, when I ask that question, 95% of time, it's a deer in the headlights. What do you mean, our top 3 to 5 priorities?

00:29:15:10 - 00:29:37:28

Bob Woolverton

Well, what that tells me is that the direction, if executive level is providing direction, it's not getting down the line. One of the other examples you use is one that I did when I first got assigned to payroll operations. I went to the patrol sergeant that I was responsible for. And let me stop there. Second you I said people that I'm responsible for.

00:29:38:13 - 00:29:58:13

Bob Woolverton

Yes. In our industry. And again, I see it a lot in the private sector now. Also, people go, oh, I'm in charge of this, I'm in charge of investigations or I'm in charge of patrol operations. These are adults. They have free will and they will not hesitate to quit. You know, go somewhere else, transfer or whatever. You are responsible for their outcomes, what they do.

00:29:58:33 - 00:30:29:37

Bob Woolverton

You're responsible for their welfare and their safety, and you're responsible for their success. And that's why I use those three responsibilities. So if we start changing our mindset of, Oh, I'm in charge now, I am responsible for your success, I'm responsible for the outcomes of this unit or this division or this organization. You know, we start looking at these are my responsibilities and that's where I hope what, what I really want to inspire in people is, especially if you're in middle management and above and you get that phone call in the middle of the night and maybe one of your officers got their talent, a ringer or something.

00:30:29:38 - 00:30:51:50

Bob Woolverton

You know, some incidents going on that I hope that's your first thought to yourself is what is my culpability in this? What could I have done or what should I have done that could have prevented this from happening to my officer? Yes, my officer getting their tail in a ringer. And I'll be honest with you, you know, used to the videos that we would see on television, you know, mostly the news.

00:30:51:50 - 00:31:17:24

Bob Woolverton

So it's a you know, it's just a snippet. And cops always say, oh, you're not seeing the full picture. Granted, that is true. But now we are seeing more and more of the full picture from body cams that are being released through public records and then put on YouTube. So we are getting the fuller picture, the vast majority of times where I see that officers entered into what I call career ending behaviors, the vast majority of time, I blame it on the organization.

00:31:18:14 - 00:31:41:06

Bob Woolverton

What I see is the organization letting the officer down. That behavior could have been prevented or it could have. There were clues, red flag warnings that a supervisor or a manager should have recognized that have could have intervened before this officer engaged in this career, their behavior. And that's the vast majority of those, actually. And, of course, there's there's the exceptions to the rule.

00:31:41:27 - 00:32:09:39

Bob Woolverton

But, you know, let's take the worst case scenario. His name's escaping me now. The George Floyd. Derek Chauvin. Yep. Yeah. So Derek Chauvin, the very first time I saw that video with his knee on George Floyd's neck, I thought to myself, that's not the first time he's done that. Right. And and as I found out later, it was true, there were other 18 other people that came forward with complaints of him doing a similar thing to them.

00:32:09:52 - 00:32:33:21

Bob Woolverton

Those are the 18 that we know of. Those are the 18 that came forward. Now, this is also an officer that's a field training officer, right? So now we get into my section of my class ethical decision making and how our young officers are learning how law enforcement has done so. And one of those officers at that at that event, the George Floyd event, was a student officer fresh out of the academy, and there were some other young officers, too.

00:32:33:37 - 00:32:58:08

Bob Woolverton

So this young officer is learning this is how we do law enforcement in Minneapolis. Yep. No, it's not. But the organization allows that behavior to continue. And this is what I will tell first line supervisors. Mm. In the executives is that if you resist having the crucial conversations with your people because interpersonal conflict is difficult, we would like to avoid interpersonal conflict with our staff.

00:32:58:08 - 00:33:15:23

Bob Woolverton

You know, if we can, we might put it off or something like that that we can't do that. Our responsibility is to make sure that we're holding people accountable. Because if there's a behavior that's maybe in a little bit of a gray area and we don't address it, and then that behavior gets repeated. Once it gets repeated, that's now your culture.

00:33:15:59 - 00:33:44:29

Bob Woolverton

You have allowed that to morph your culture. And so when you see these little things, these little red flags, you've got to get on to them. Otherwise this may totally snowball out of control and you're going to get, you know, horrendous incidents like that. But there's also so many red flag warnings to watch for in the workplace. You know, we've probably all seen the officer that has their mail distribution boxes full of follow ups that are delinquent, that have been there forever.

00:33:44:42 - 00:34:00:23

Bob Woolverton

Maybe now, you know, body cam videos that haven't been logged properly, you know, this sort of thing, or because they're just too busy, they've got other stuff going on. Well, when we talk about motivating employees and sometimes you say, well, employees just aren't motivated to work well, these are examples of employees that are motivated, just not in the way that we want.

00:34:00:25 - 00:34:16:35

Bob Woolverton

They're off doing their thing, you know. Oh, I don't have time to log that evidence, so I don't have time to, you know, log that body cam video, you know, that sort of stuff. I don't have time to do that follow up because I'm not here doing this other stuff as supervisors and managers. Those are red flags because they're not following our guidelines.

00:34:16:35 - 00:34:34:26

Bob Woolverton

Else are they doing that doesn't follow our guidelines. And there is another, you know, very famous, well, I should say, more of a viral body cam video of an officer, Florida, that basically got fired. He thought he was doing good work. He's getting guns and drugs off the street, but he's violating people's civil rights at the same time.

00:34:34:56 - 00:34:55:31

Bob Woolverton

But the problem is, you know, related back to what I just talking about is the other officers they interviewed that had seen him do this several times. They go, I just thought that was okay, what he was doing because he's been doing it so many times. So they're figuring that even though it's a violation of department policy, a violation of state law, they're thinking, oh, well, this must be okay because he's doing it and he's doing it over and over and over again and again.

00:34:55:31 - 00:35:14:38

Bob Woolverton

That's those behaviors that create your culture, because our younger officers, they're still trying to figure out this career. So they're looking up and they're looking around in the organization for clues on how they should behave. And that's where we have to make sure that we're providing that right guidance. But I could I will take up the whole hour on this.

00:35:14:38 - 00:35:16:54

Bob Woolverton

So you need to stop me here. Well.

00:35:17:38 - 00:35:18:52

Wayne Mulder

Yeah, I think it's absolutely.

00:35:18:52 - 00:35:19:53

Bob Woolverton

Great about this stuff.

00:35:20:54 - 00:35:38:02

Wayne Mulder

I think it's wonderful. I really do. Bob and I, in fact, I want to make sure the listeners check out. I'm going to have a link to your LinkedIn in the show notes, so definitely check that out. But a lot of where you were just talking about is in this great article you wrote career ending police misconduct and massive lawsuit settlements, mostly preventable.

00:35:38:54 - 00:36:03:32

Wayne Mulder

Great article. I really enjoyed it. And a lot of what you just talked about, how big like you talk about this whole thing with ethical decision making, is this something where agencies are not teaching that too? So in my case, and I don't go into a lot of specifics on where I work and so forth on this podcast, but I am very blessed to be at a very forward thinking agency.

00:36:03:50 - 00:36:30:52

Wayne Mulder

So we actually have not only have we had multiple classes on things like that, we have an actual ethical decision making card that sits above my visor in my car. So I'm very fortunate to work at an agency that has a vision and so forth. So when I hear some of these horror stories from across the country and I say that, and yet no agency, even the most forward thinking, is immune from some of these stories that we hear as far as things going bad.

00:36:31:31 - 00:36:51:07

Wayne Mulder

What I think is the difference is how quickly it's dealt with in the fact that it doesn't happen again, as opposed to, like you said, behavior that's tolerated gets repeated. So when it comes to ethical decision making is that's something where agencies are really failing their officers. And then if so, what is the steps that that line supervisor So that sergeant that's listening.

00:36:51:07 - 00:36:59:13

Wayne Mulder

That lieutenant that's listening. What are the things that they can start doing to make that change within their span of span of control?

00:37:00:01 - 00:37:19:30

Bob Woolverton

You know, I think the easiest thing that supervisors, you know, sergeants, lieutenants can do well and one only had let me add this before I go to that step as lieutenants, as captains sit in a roll call occasionally. Yes. I made it a rule every Friday morning. Are we are we're on 12 hour shifts, 6 a.m. to 6 p.m..

00:37:19:30 - 00:37:35:23

Bob Woolverton

I was responsible for day shift. I had another captain colleague that was responsible for night shift. So every Friday morning shift, shift or even 6 a.m., I was there and it was so funny because at first I was like, you know, on edge, all the captains in the room, you know, sort of thing. And the sergeant would stop his briefing like, Oh, Captain, is this something you want to add?

00:37:35:34 - 00:37:48:03

Bob Woolverton

No, I'm just a fly on the wall. Still your briefing and I'll take it away. And it got to the point where then it was just the norm. Yep. And then even if questions were cut during the week, say, well, hang on, hang on to that question till Friday, the captain to be heard Friday. We'll ask him when he gets here.

00:37:48:19 - 00:38:06:18

Bob Woolverton

You know, so then so it became the norm. And I learned so much about what was going on on the street. And so I would say, make yourself available to your people however you do it and do it on a regular recurrent schedule so they can count on you being there. Now back to your original question on this ethical decision making.

00:38:06:34 - 00:38:27:45

Bob Woolverton

What we can do as supervisors and as middle managers, I think the quickest and easiest thing and this really only takes a couple of minutes is when we see some of these body cam videos that were career ending behaviors for officers. And our first reaction might be nobody in my agency would ever do that. Yeah, take that video and talk about it.

00:38:28:01 - 00:38:44:54

Bob Woolverton

You might be surprised and I'll give you a couple examples. One was several years ago, I was at a shift briefing and at the you know, like I said, we did huge growth. We were hiring people as fast as we could hire from all over the country. And just by accident, I brought up the subject of felony stops and how we conduct a felony stop.

00:38:44:54 - 00:39:07:06

Bob Woolverton

And what we found just on this one patrol squad alone, there were three different philosophies on how to do felony stops. Well, I'm glad we figured it out in the shift briefing room rather than out on the street. You know, because they were three distinctly different techniques that had been that come in from all over the country. And I'm guessing that in our lateral training that they get through the state academy, that apparently felony stops aren't covered so that we're doing it uniformly.

00:39:07:21 - 00:39:35:31

Bob Woolverton

But that was something we had to fix right away, you know, because, you know, this could be tragic out on the street. Right? So I would take these videos and just show them, don't cast any judgment and ask your people, what do you think of that? And one of the reasons that I say that is there is and I mentioned it in that article is there was a video that I saw from just a couple of years ago where a suspect had basically submitted to the officer lying down on the ground, arm spread out, he's falling all the commands.

00:39:35:49 - 00:39:54:00

Bob Woolverton

And then before the officer comes up to handcuff him, he comes up and kicks him in the side of the head like he's kicking an extra point for an American football game. I mean, really hard in the side of the head. And then he comes around in handcuffs. And my first reaction, if I were to see that video, nobody in my organization would ever do that.

00:39:54:00 - 00:40:15:45

Bob Woolverton

But then I find another video of the exact same thing in a completely different part of the country. And another video. And as you saw in the article, I found 12 of them doing exactly what I want. Where are people getting this idea to kick somebody in the head? And maybe I don't know, maybe there's some defensive tactics training by private fighters, them where they're teaching.

00:40:15:45 - 00:40:28:46

Bob Woolverton

This is like this is as effective as a stun grenade or something. I don't know. I don't know where this comes from, but this would be worth having conversation with our people. What do you think of this? And maybe some of it was oh, yeah, they were training. You know, that, you know, we're not going to do that.

00:40:28:55 - 00:40:29:25

Bob Woolverton

I don't care.

00:40:29:49 - 00:40:30:19

Wayne Mulder

We don't do that.

00:40:30:46 - 00:40:47:42

Bob Woolverton

And when you watching these videos, some of these officers got fired immediately and then other officers got disciplined. I think one of them got reduced in rank because he didn't report the use of force, you know, sort of thing. And so these I mean, these are very short videos to show. What do you think of this sort of thing?

00:40:47:42 - 00:40:57:12

Bob Woolverton

It just makes sure that everybody's in the same shooting music like we were talking about with the felony stops. And to me, that can be so easy to do and you might get surprised.

00:40:57:45 - 00:41:27:21

Wayne Mulder

Yes. Well, and like you just said, with the one that got disciplined for not reporting it, I mean, that's becoming as big of a hot button issue now in light of the George Floyd incident or killing, but also like you're saying, it would like the able training and so forth that's coming out now, the active bystander ship training to where if you're there observing this happen, you are just as culpable as the guy that is physically doing whatever the action may be, even if you're not his direct supervisor or especially if you're not his direct supervisor.

00:41:28:03 - 00:41:46:30

Bob Woolverton

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I saw a video that made me recognize a shortcoming in our training and, you know, our new recruits. We're teaching them to intervene that, you know, if an officer has let their emotions get the better of them and they're going to engage in an excessive use of force is to intervene on that excessive use of force, right?

00:41:46:44 - 00:42:06:32

Bob Woolverton

Yeah. So there was a video recently where basically a sergeant was preparing to pepper spray a suspect in the back of a car who was handcuffed and the brand new officer fresh out of the academy. She sees this. She's been trained to intervene and she grabs the sergeant by his belt from behind and pulls him back away from the car.

00:42:07:13 - 00:42:18:57

Bob Woolverton

And his immediate reaction was to turn around to grab her by the throat and back her up against the car. Of course, the audio was muted, so we don't know exactly what the exchange was, but you could tell it wasn't very friendly and that was career ending behavior for that. Sergeant.

00:42:19:15 - 00:42:23:09

Wayne Mulder

Yeah, and she wanted to be criminally charged on it as well. That happened down here in Florida.

00:42:23:42 - 00:42:43:01

Bob Woolverton

Okay. And so what I realized from that is, yeah, we're teaching our young officers to intervene. Have we had any discussions with our senior officers what that might feel like and what's the intent? And that's I'm trying to save your job. You don't need to turn around and talk me, you know, sort of thing. But that would be a good five minute conversation to have.

00:42:43:28 - 00:42:50:00

Bob Woolverton

Yeah. So when that does happen, and that's when I saw that video, I thought, wow, we are failing our people by not having this discussion, you know, so.

00:42:50:00 - 00:42:50:20

Wayne Mulder

Correct.

00:42:50:45 - 00:43:12:10

Bob Woolverton

That. So anyway, those are the sorts of things that I think as a first level supervisor on this ethical decision making, because I do a section in my classes on ethical decision making where we talk about consequential wisdom and, you know, basically what creates the the net benefit versus, you know, the net harm sort of thing end logical consequences all the way down to virtue ethics approach.

00:43:12:41 - 00:43:32:02

Bob Woolverton

And that's great for an executive, especially if they're going to make a disciplinary decision because they can go through all of these different criteria and then come to their decision, and then they've got this criteria that makes their decision defensible. So of all the things that I considered, this is my decision rather than, Oh, I just felt like the right thing to do.

00:43:32:43 - 00:43:49:48

Bob Woolverton

And so it can help you make a better decision. But that takes time. And our cops on the street don't have that kind of time. So where we can help our cops on the street is to have these shift briefing discussions with these videos, because I refer to them as like football practice, because we've already talked about this type of scenario.

00:43:49:48 - 00:43:59:04

Bob Woolverton

So when it does come up and a decision needs to be made right now it's already been rehearsed in the shift briefing room and they know what the appropriate response is. They don't have to make it up on the fly.

00:43:59:49 - 00:44:24:39

Wayne Mulder

But that is such that is absolutely correct. And it's very powerful. And I was very fortunate years ago. I had a lieutenant who that he made it his point and sometimes it was article related and other times it was just law enforcement related like. And he would just throw out random scenarios at every briefing. It would be, you know, if something happens at this Wal-Mart, at this location and this is the scenario, what do you do?

00:44:24:39 - 00:44:42:41

Wayne Mulder

And just go around, you know, and what do you do? You know, you're driving by. You were going to stop by the gas station and get a drink. And you do what? And that because you know how it is. If you throw a question out as an instructor, nobody's going to raise their hand. And if you ask somebody, they're going to give you the shortest answer possible, usually because they want you to go on to the next guy.

00:44:43:13 - 00:45:02:36

Wayne Mulder

And that's if anyone's even in the front of the classroom because of good law enforcement training, everybody's way in the back. It's like a Baptist church. Everybody sits in the back row. So that that is so powerful because in that environment, everybody's discussing it and no one's you are kind of put on the spot. But in that small red off environment, it's just part of it.

00:45:02:36 - 00:45:14:51

Wayne Mulder

And it becomes a discussion in some ways, kind of becomes a tabletop exercise that makes a big difference if and when an event like that happens. Because even your newest deputy, newest officer knows how to act or react.

00:45:15:23 - 00:45:31:42

Bob Woolverton

Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's funny that you mention that, because back in the old days when I was a first level supervisor, our patrol shifts, we used to rotate every three months from day swing to graveyard. And so when we were in graveyard, we had pre-planned response routes to bank robberies and we used to rehearse these on graveyard.

00:45:31:42 - 00:45:51:07

Bob Woolverton

So I was the only sergeant that was doing it at the time. And so we would go out and we would talk about not only where are you supposed to be stationed, but let's look at your background. If you were engaged in a firefight, what's your background here? You know, and to pre think about these things before you you know, you're in the the heat of the of the moment and needing to pull the trigger is that we know, okay, there's a brick wall.

00:45:51:07 - 00:46:04:51

Bob Woolverton

That'd be a safe background. Well, there's a main intersection full of cars. They don't want to fire that direction. Know. So we're given the rehearsal and the football practice, you know, and I still have guys that I worked with that are, you know, we're all now in retirement there. You know, those were some of the best exercises and so on.

00:46:04:51 - 00:46:23:34

Bob Woolverton

And they really appreciated that fact. And I kind of got that from my dad, you know, because as a Seattle police officer, they used to he and his he was on a motorcycle and his he and his motorcycle buddies had coffee. They would talk about who could come up with the greatest plan to take over the city. And you know me, as the armed the active gunman, you know, taking over the city, how are you going to get to, you know, sort of that?

00:46:23:51 - 00:46:27:18

Bob Woolverton

So that's kind of where I got the idea. I just made a more practical application of it.

00:46:28:10 - 00:46:45:32

Wayne Mulder

I think it's great. And I tell you, like you said, those are some of the best stories and some of the best memories I have is that kind of training. And then I can also relate it to actual incidents that have happened and when that training became invaluable. Let me ask you one other quick question. When we talk about traits of a leader and I really like what you talk about with these two traits.

00:46:45:32 - 00:46:51:18

Wayne Mulder

So what do you believe as far as when comes traits like empathy and vulnerability and how they play a role in leadership?

00:46:52:10 - 00:47:14:54

Bob Woolverton

Well. Well, if there's a colleague of mine that she's now the chief down in Albany, Oregon, and if she's listening to this podcast, she's going to be laughing right now because she's a big Brené Brown fan and Bernie Brown's book Dare to Lead. And she mentions in that book that leadership is about vulnerability, vulnerability and empathy and so on.

00:47:14:54 - 00:47:38:06

Bob Woolverton

And again, to me, that's the interpersonal part. That's not my strength. That's definitely things I had to work on. I got better at it, you know, over my career but every boss I had, all five of my chiefs, they were great at that. People loved them. They were vulnerable. They were empathetic. I mean, charismatic, you know, they had all the interpersonal characteristics, but they were missing that component of leading, you know, that it wasn't the shiny object syndrome, that it wasn't the squirrel syndrome.

00:47:38:06 - 00:48:11:45

Bob Woolverton

We knew what we were trying to accomplish, you know, where we were going. And so, you know, you've you have to have the interpersonal part. But to me, if you have the interpersonal part and you're not leading, if you don't have the vision, you're not providing direction, then you're just a really nice person, you know? And so what I, you know, the example that I use is that if you're the captain of a, you know, a battleship and you're in the wheelhouse and you've got your hand on the wheel and you never change course, you're just along for the ride.

00:48:11:45 - 00:48:27:54

Bob Woolverton

You know, somebody that's setting the course, plotting a new course. This is where we're going. This is what our mission is. That's a leader that sets. This is the direction we're going. That's why they're supposedly they've got the 40,000 foot view. They can see, you know, the internal and external environment say this is where we need to be going.

00:48:29:11 - 00:48:51:55

Bob Woolverton

So, yeah, when we talk about vulnerability and empathy, it's important because it comes with trust. And once you have trust with your people, that's when they will support you with their blood, sweat and tears. And the reason that I say that we probably all had the boss in the past where some citizen might call to complain about a traffic stop or something like that and their first.

00:48:52:12 - 00:49:12:19

Bob Woolverton

And then the boss comes in and say, Why did you screw this up? Or Tell me more about how you screwed this up sort of thing. The default position is you screwed up, right? Right. Well, as I mentioned, you know, my colleague and I, when we were assigned to patrol operations, we were inclined to change that. And since we always gave our people the benefit of the doubt if we got a citizen complaint, okay, I've got this data.

00:49:12:41 - 00:49:31:03

Bob Woolverton

I made no judgment whatsoever. So, you know, go talk to your what? You tell me, you know, what you saw, what you did. You know what interactions were and then make the decision. But we would tell our people, our default position is that you did the right thing because we've trained you. We've, you know, we facilitate your success and we anticipate that you're going to do the right thing.

00:49:31:24 - 00:49:59:36

Bob Woolverton

And so that's going to be our default position. And then ultimately, you let the you know, the facts of the investigation go where it may, but we never started off with the idea that you screwed up that. But once we got to the point where that became the norm, people trusted that we had their back and it was merely just the fact that we gave them the benefit of the doubt, you know, because our responsibility is to facilitate their success, to make sure that they got the training and the skills and ability to be successful.

00:49:59:40 - 00:50:19:57

Bob Woolverton

We anticipate they're going to be successful, you know, and then again, if it goes sideways, what's my culpability in that? Where did I let this officer down? You know, what could I have done or should I have done to prevent this from occurring? And even I'll give you an example that I think I even mentioned in the article that you're talking about.

00:50:20:16 - 00:50:40:15

Bob Woolverton

So in our organization, we had a pursuit policy that we didn't pursue for property crimes, which you want to go back in stories. Let me tell you, when I first started in law enforcement in 1984, one of the real popular property crimes that had happened on a graveyard shift was theft of a car stereo. And I think there were even eight tracks at the time.

00:50:40:15 - 00:50:52:39

Bob Woolverton

I think we were up to cassette players yet, you know, we would literally get into a high speed pursuit in the middle of the night over, a stolen car stereo. In hindsight, how stupid was that?

00:50:52:53 - 00:50:55:04

Wayne Mulder

Right? I mean, ability to everybody.

00:50:55:04 - 00:51:11:43

Bob Woolverton

Oh, my gosh. You know, not only the risk of the officer and the suspect, but, you know, if I don't know, you know, down in Florida how they do it. But even still here in the greater cellar, we've got newspaper delivery people that are on the streets, three or four or 5 a.m., and they're just doing their daily route when there's virtually no traffic on the road.

00:51:12:05 - 00:51:27:16

Bob Woolverton

And they're, you know, they're on both sides of the road sort of thing. And they come up to an intersection. And when they look to the and look to the right, they're looking for a car coming roughly close to the speed, but not at 100 miles an hour. Yeah. And then they pull out and get T-boned by the 100 mile an hour car over a stolen car stereo.

00:51:27:18 - 00:51:52:01

Bob Woolverton

I mean, you know, looking back hindsight now, obviously we're way smarter today than we were then, right? So so we think we're smarter. Our foreign policy was we don't pursue over property crimes. And so one night we had an officer that was pursuing a stolen vehicle going up the freeway and he called out all the information he's supposed to call and a sergeant did the right thing and terminated the pursuit.

00:51:52:42 - 00:52:06:46

Bob Woolverton

Officer did what he's supposed to do. He shuts everything down, rates, zooms the normal speed. Well, now he's on a position to the freeway where he has to go quite a ways before he can get to an off ramp and get turned around. And then by time he does get to that off ramp, he's sitting at the red light waiting to turn left to make the turn to come back around back into town.

00:52:07:28 - 00:52:27:52

Bob Woolverton

Gas station on the corner, there's the suspect vehicle. And now he stopped at a gas pump, you know. So the officer pulls in behind him and there's a car in front of him. So now the suspect's kind of locked in and now the suspect looks back. Oh, the cops are behind me, puts in a reverse Rams patrol car to push it back to get in a gap, to get out drives out over the landscaping back on the freeway north.

00:52:27:52 - 00:52:55:28

Bob Woolverton

They go into the city of Everett and this is late at night on a summer night, clear summer night, low amount of traffic. But now it's no longer property crime. According to the officer, he tried to kill me, you know. Well, and we can. We can have a debate about that. And and maybe we should start having a debate about that, because one of the people that I teach with, former LAPD, he said, you know, my day, they used to teach us to jump out of the way of cars, you know, because people are trying to run over us, but they weren't trying to run over.

00:52:55:28 - 00:53:14:43

Bob Woolverton

They're trying to get away from us, you know? And he goes, We actually did training where we jump out of the way and onto a mat or something like that. You know, I thought maybe we should have discussions about that at least. But anyway, I get sidetracked here. So anyway, now the pursuit continues on up the freeway. Interstate five into Everett goes off on to one of their main arterials.

00:53:14:43 - 00:53:34:46

Bob Woolverton

And as it approaches Providence Hospital, they're a shift change. And one of the nurses that just got off at midnight, she's on her way home. She's got a green light. And this pickup truck that's being pursued by us T-boned her and kills her. Wow. The absolute thing we did not want to happen. That's why our pursuit policy said we don't want people to die over property crimes.

00:53:35:31 - 00:53:54:28

Bob Woolverton

So the intent of what we expected from the executive level by issuing this policy, the results are the outcomes we wanted. We didn't get. Yeah. So now we need to start looking at ourselves. Do we need to communicate the policy differently? Is the policy understood correctly? You know what the intent that we don't want people to die over property crimes, you know, sort of thing.

00:53:54:37 - 00:54:18:10

Bob Woolverton

And should we be evaluating, did the person really try to kill us or were they merely trying to get away, you know, so that should we be training on the extenuating circumstances? In essence? So roll the clock forward. Now we're into actually actually was late last year, late 2021. I retired in 2018, 2021. I'm doing research for my block of instruction on ethical decision making.

00:54:18:32 - 00:54:47:25

Bob Woolverton

And I see this headline where my organization paid out $3 million to the families for the wrongful death of this nurse. Yes. Now, my personal opinion, I think for losing a wife, losing a mother of two children, $3,000 is not enough compensation. But ultimately that three or $3 million is intended to change our behavior. Right. And looking back, I was when I saw that headline, I was so upset because I was part of the executive team.

00:54:47:42 - 00:55:06:46

Bob Woolverton

I didn't know we had paid out $3 million. I know our chief knew because she gets a report from the insurance authority, you know, everything they pay out on. But it never got communicated to us that we paid out money on that claim and nor did we do anything different. We didn't do training and, you know, with nothing in our organization of behavior changed at all.

00:55:06:46 - 00:55:31:48

Bob Woolverton

So that $3 million just was meaningless and that woman's death to us was meaningless. And I find that completely inexcusable. And that's where when we start, when we look at the responsibility, that's where the classes that I teach this leadership component is holding people accountable, making sure that what we intend for outcomes that we're getting the outcomes is so vital because the consequences can be tragic.

00:55:31:48 - 00:55:54:57

Bob Woolverton

I mean, we lose officers, suspects get killed, innocent people get killed. I mean, life and death. Yeah. Based off of the decisions that we make. And so when we focus on the outcomes and so when we issue a policy, we are issuing the policy for a certain purpose. We were expecting a certain outcome. If we're not getting that outcome, then we need to analyze why.

00:55:54:57 - 00:56:14:04

Bob Woolverton

What do we need to do difference in either how we train on the policy or whatever. We need to be doing something different because we're not getting the outcome we want. And that's our number one responsibility, is to focus on outcomes. And so that's where I challenge my students, is to want understand the importance of what you do from the first level of supervision all the way up.

00:56:14:43 - 00:56:29:04

Bob Woolverton

Because people lives, people's lives are in the balance. And actually, this is the very first time ever I've been able to talk about that that nurse that got killed that night without choking up and getting teary eyed. So obviously I've talked about it a lot and this is the very first time that I haven't got teary eyed about it.

00:56:29:45 - 00:57:03:01

Bob Woolverton

So I'm, you know, and I wasn't even involved. Yeah, but the idea in my mind, knowing that two children lost their mother, that a man lost their wife and all she was doing was coming home from work, and more importantly, that we did nothing to change our behavior. So it's to me, it's like if you go to the gun range and you hold up your gun and you line up the sights and you squeeze that trigger and you've got your sights properly, like you're doing all the mechanics properly to hit the bullseye if you pull the trigger and then walk away.

00:57:03:09 - 00:57:17:34

Bob Woolverton

Well, I did everything right. I know. I must hit the bull's eye. Right? Right. Well, that's why we pull the target back and look at it. Did we? Well, the same thing with that policy. Our intent was that people don't get killed over property crimes. We didn't hit the bull's eye on that. So we needed to do something different.

00:57:17:34 - 00:57:35:07

Bob Woolverton

And when you pull the target back as well, I hit the seven ring, okay? I start making some adjustments in the mechanics of how I do things to be able to hit the bull's eye. Same thing with issuing the policy. We need that feedback and are we getting the results that we want in this case, we didn't. We paid out $3 million and we still didn't do anything different.

00:57:35:11 - 00:57:39:21

Bob Woolverton

We didn't change the mechanics whatsoever. To me, that is completely unacceptable for our industry.

00:57:39:48 - 00:58:00:35

Wayne Mulder

Yeah, I agree with you more on the power of that and that's what I really loved about the article that you wrote, that career ending police misconduct and how so much of it is preventable. So I will definitely link that up. I suggest to the listeners any anyone in any sort of leadership position from a corp and above, definitely take a look at this article because what Bob's describing here is just so, so important, too.

00:58:00:46 - 00:58:10:55

Wayne Mulder

Last question for you, sir, because I know we got to get going. Tell us a little bit about what you are doing with top tier leadership training. Com And just what are you doing right now and how can people connect with that?

00:58:12:23 - 00:58:34:46

Bob Woolverton

What? Well, so, you know, obviously during COVID, I've been teaching all my classes online, you know, in a virtual setting. I still have a contract with the Washington State Criminal Justice Training Commission, where I teach the class is called Middle Management. I actually refer to him most of what I teach as preparation for executive level. You know, I focus a lot on vision statements, mission statements, strategic planning, that sort of thing.

00:58:34:46 - 00:58:58:37

Bob Woolverton

But I also focus on theories of motivation. So like for your online view. So in theories of motivation, I teach these basic theories of motivation, expectancy theory needs, theory, outcomes, goal setting theory, equity theory and psychological empowerment. And the reason that I teach those is because they're so vitally important to what motivates people in the workplace and how they choose their behaviors.

00:58:58:37 - 00:59:13:24

Bob Woolverton

You know, so and we're rapidly running out of time, but particularly needs theory, you know, people are doing their behaviors because they're fulfilling some sort of need. You might remember the old days with the Dr. Phil Show, you know, people on a stage and was gone. So when are you getting out of that behavior? And they're like, well, what do you mean?

00:59:13:24 - 00:59:28:39

Bob Woolverton

Because you wouldn't be doing that behavior if you weren't getting something out of it. So you're fulfilling some sort of need now is to figure out what is that need. And so that's why I talk about needs theory because, you know, people are doing, like I say, they're motivated. They just not maybe maybe motivated the direction that we want.

00:59:28:55 - 00:59:51:27

Bob Woolverton

Yeah. You know, so we've got to understand what need they're fulfilling when they're doing. They're so they talk about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation and equity theory. Oh my gosh. Equity theory will kill morale in an organization faster than anything, you know, so those are important. So when we talk about leadership, I have all these subcomponents are so important to understand theories of motivation, the ethical decision making systems.

00:59:51:59 - 01:00:12:57

Bob Woolverton

We all have systems and organizations that we created. And and of course, if we are the one person that created it, we think it's the greatest system in the world. You know, of course, you've got employees going, why do we do this? And we don't have a good answer. You know, that's a red flag. Maybe we should research this a little bit or, you know, people that are going, this is stupid, this sucks, you know, this sort of thing, those are all red flags.

01:00:13:26 - 01:00:35:02

Bob Woolverton

And either there's information that we could give them. And they went and said, Oh, okay, now I understand why we do this. Now I understand the bigger picture, or maybe we don't need to be doing this anymore, or maybe we should be doing it differently. And the employees that are stuck doing it, that think that this is stupid, this is a waste of time, that just pulls morale down, that pulls motivation down, you know, and that creates a disconnect between management and the line workers, you know.

01:00:35:02 - 01:00:54:19

Bob Woolverton

So it's important to understand all these issues. So these are the types of things that I train on. But what I'm focusing on, on my training is to be the leader that creates a successful organization and career successful people in your organization, because people come to work for us because they are driven by a passion of what we do.

01:00:54:41 - 01:01:15:52

Bob Woolverton

We don't have people that want to be architects that come to be police officers. They have an innate drive. They want to serve the public, they want to give to the community. They want to make things better. They want to contribute to something bigger than themselves, something that's meaningful. And when we can create an organization, we can do amazing things.

01:01:15:55 - 01:01:35:20

Bob Woolverton

I also do this when I do some local toxic Asian with different businesses. I did a talk not too long ago called Coffee with an expert, and I just started off with is it the responsibility of the employee to come to work for us already motivated to put in a good day's work? Or is it the employer's responsibility to create an environment that stimulates motivation?

01:01:36:05 - 01:01:49:57

Bob Woolverton

And we were scheduled for, I think, for an hour and a half with two and a half hours, and it cut it off and I said, okay, we'll have to get back to work now, you know, because it was such an interesting discussion. So even just the, you know, the theories of motivation, I mean, we can really get into details on that.

01:01:50:15 - 01:01:58:22

Bob Woolverton

But what I focus on is basically preparing middle managers to become executives and to help executives be better at what they do.

01:01:59:24 - 01:02:16:12

Wayne Mulder

That's great. And I really love what you're doing and it is so needed. And even as we've talked, story after story after story keeps coming to mind. And it's kind of funny how you have these conversations, especially in the law enforcement space. And you can think of that sergeant or that lieutenant, both good and bad examples of all the above.

01:02:16:12 - 01:02:39:54

Wayne Mulder

So I really love it. Let me ask you my one final question that I kind of ask everybody who comes on here. We've been through so many great things that does make a difference for everybody. But if we're going to boil it down or have something different, what is the one take away? The one thing that law and our law enforcement officers can do that's going to make a difference in their personal lives, something actionable that they can do right now.

01:02:41:29 - 01:03:06:52

Bob Woolverton

That'll make a difference in their personal lives. Yes, I'm not good at pop quizzes, but what would come to my mind, because when you talk about work and life balance, I think if we focus on treating all people with dignity and respect, whether that's people in our private life, whether it's people in our families, people in our families who maybe have a different belief than we have about law enforcement or other things.

01:03:08:09 - 01:03:36:54

Bob Woolverton

And of course, the people we deal with on the job, if we keep that as a main focus of treating people with dignity and respect and recognizing that we can't truly understand a person until we've walked a mile in their shoes. And I could go on again another hour or two about that discussion alone, things that I learned personally so my own shortcomings, where I made assumptions about people assuming they were making bad decisions when in reality were things that were way beyond their control that led to this stage of their life.

01:03:38:20 - 01:03:56:07

Bob Woolverton

I think that would probably be the one thing is just focus on in the workplace and at home, treating everybody you encounter with dignity and respect. And gosh, I had another thing that just tailed to that and the thought is just including me right now and it was really good. I wish you remember.

01:03:56:07 - 01:04:16:57

Wayne Mulder

Now it happens to all of us. No problem at all. Well, Bob, I really appreciate it. For the listeners, make sure you check out top tier leadership training.com, top tier leadership training.com. There'll be a link of course in the show notes to that. I really appreciate it, Bob. Anything that maybe I haven't asked you that we want to make sure the listeners know before I let you go.

01:04:17:38 - 01:04:37:15

Bob Woolverton

Now, the only thing that I that I would add for your listeners is that I am completely open. I would love invitations if you have an association meeting where maybe you want somebody to speak even one hour at a luncheon about leadership or there is a motivation, that sort of thing. Or if you've got an organization that's maybe region wide or something like that, I would love to speak.

01:04:37:15 - 01:05:04:26

Bob Woolverton

Or even if your organization has a site that they would like to host my training and get a couple of free seats and then we'll let everybody else pay your your fee for coming in and you know, the typical training sort of stuff. But I focus on what I like to call executive level training, basically preparing people, you know, for that higher level in the organization, providing direction to the organization and ultimately overall just making things better and ultimately getting to the point where when you retire, the people will look back there at your retirement party.

01:05:04:26 - 01:05:31:30

Bob Woolverton

They will tell you or, you know, when they run into off the street, say, you know, you were one of the best leaders that I ever had. That's what I want for people that I work with. I want to raise the level of professionalism in this industry and to make you all more successful. In a sense, what I say is I fill your bucket with care and then you go out and start your leadership structure, leadership fire and and that's what inspires me to do what basically help everybody that I encounter to be better leaders.

01:05:32:15 - 01:05:43:40

Wayne Mulder

I love it. Thank you so much. It's all powerful. And like you said, we could go on for a couple of hours. I'd love to hear stories and keep talking, but I think they'll do it for today. Maybe I can have you on in the future. And Bob, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time.

01:05:44:07 - 01:05:49:12

Bob Woolverton

Just let me know. I would love to come back. It's been great. It doesn't even seem like it's been an hour yet. This has just gone by so quickly.

01:05:49:40 - 01:06:06:32

Wayne Mulder

And that does it for this week's The Interview Room. I hope you really enjoyed it. Another great guest will be with us again next week. We have a great lineup for you here over the next few weeks and I'm through the rest of the year, so you're definitely not going to want to miss a single episode. We also have Morning Roll Call, which typically comes out on Monday mornings.

01:06:06:32 - 01:06:24:39

Wayne Mulder

However, I may change my mind and who knows? It could come on different day of the week, but morning roll call, check that out as well. That's just me talking to you. And it gives us a few minutes to go over something, anything from news or something actionable that matters, hopefully to you. One last favor, please, please, please.

01:06:24:39 - 01:06:43:10

Wayne Mulder

Whatever service you are looking at or whatever service you are watching this on, you're listening to this on, please leave us a rating and review five stars. That would be the appropriate number of stars if for some reason it's not five stars, in your opinion, or if it is, tell us why we would love to hear it. I would love to get your feedback.

01:06:43:10 - 01:07:00:14

Wayne Mulder

In fact, I'm going to start reading some of these reviews on the air. I have been looking at some of the ones on Apple Podcasts and thank you, thank you, thank you for the phenomenal reviews and thank you all for taking the time to listen to this. I hope you're really enjoying it. You all have a safe week out there and I will see you next week in the interview room.

01:07:00:14 - 01:07:12:27

Wayne Mulder

I will see you next week in the morning roll call. But in the meantime, I'll see you On The Blue Line.

Wayne Mulder
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