PODCAST: What it means to Smash the Stigma with Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret. | THE INTERVIEW ROOM | Episode 044
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What it means to Smash the Stigma with Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret. | THE INTERVIEW ROOM | Episode 044
Meet this Weeks Guest: Michael Sugrue
Michael Sugrue began his law enforcement career in the United States Air Force as a Security Forces Officer in 1998. As a Security Forces Officer, Michael specialized in Law Enforcement, Global Force Protection, Anti-Terrorism, Nuclear Security, Foreign Airfield Assessments and Air Base Ground Defense.
Michael served in a variety of assignments including: Flight Leader, Flight Commander, Senior Watch Officer, Chief of Command Post and Chief of Security Forces.
Michael served all over the United States, Europe, the Middle East and South America. He was also a Security Forces Phoenix Raven with the unique identifier of #1173. Michael honorably separated from the Air Force as a Captain in 2004.
Immediately after the Air Force, Michael was hired by the Walnut Creek Police Department where he served in a variety of assignments including: Patrol Officer, Driver Training Instructor (EVOC) Field Training Officer (FTO), SIU Detective, Undercover CA DOJ Narcotic Task Force Agent (Contra Costa County), Public Information Officer (PIO) and Patrol Sergeant.
Michael was awarded the Walnut Creek PD Distinguished Service Medal in 2014 for his heroic and life saving actions during a Fatal Officer Involved Shooting in 2012.
Michael ultimately medically retired in 2018. He is now a Peer Volunteer at the West Coast Post Trauma Retreat (WCPR) and an Ambassador for Save A Warrior (SAW).
Michael is a dedicated advocate for awareness, prevention, education, training on Post Traumatic Stress Injury (PTSI) and First Responder Suicide Prevention. Michael continues to speak at law enforcement agencies all over the United States.
In his BEST-SELLING book, RELENTLESS COURAGE: Winning the Battle Against Frontline Trauma, along with Dr. Shauna Springer, PhD, they tackle the complexity of trauma within the law enforcement community, uncovering the unspoken barriers, and outline a path to healing.
RELENTLESS COURAGE released in Spring 2022 and has been described by Lt. Col. David Grossman, best-selling author of On Killing and On Combat as “one of the most important books of our time” and “the natural successor to On Combat.”
⬇️ HIS NEW BOOK IS AVAILABLE HERE ⬇️
Show Notes from This Episode
The On The Blue Line Podcast and Community has the mission of Empowering Cops in their personal lives and educating the public on the realities of law enforcement. This law enforcement podcast is focused on providing concepts, ideas, and actionable steps that can make a difference in your life. The morning roll call is a weekly monologue show with Wayne Mulder. The Interview Room podcast is an interview style format hosted by Wayne Mulder.
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Topics we discuss:
Trauma
Smashing The Stigma
Mental Health
Relentless Courage
Post Traumatic Stress Injury (PTSI)
Police Suicide
RESOURCES mentioned:
• BOOK: Relentless Courage: Winning the Battle against frontline trauma.
• AUDIOBOOK: The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the healing of trauma. Author: Bessel A. van der Kolk.
• AUDIOBOOK: Achilles in Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the undoing of character. Author: Jonathan Shay.
• ORGANIZATION: Mission 22, Recovery and Resiliency program.
CONNECT with Michael:
• LINKEDIN: @Michael Sugrue
• INSTAGRAM: @sergeant_michael_sugrue_
• FACEBOOK: @Sgt. Michael Sugrue – Ret.
AFTER the episode:
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• EMAIL me your feedback: Feedback@OnTheBlueLine.com
• Get the eBook, “How the law enforcement makes you cynical and what you can do about it” by Wayne Mulder.
On The Blue Line was founded and is operated by active-duty law enforcement to fulfill the mission of providing guidance, resources and community for law enforcement officers, first responders, and military personal in their off-duty lives.
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TRANSCRIPTION OF EPISODE. Please note this is a new service we are offering and there will be spelling, grammar and accuracy issues. This transcription is offered as a convenience to our listeners, but at this time it is not guaranteed to be accurate.
00;00;15;10 - 00;00;31;15
Wayne Mulder
Welcome to the On The Blue Line podcast. I'm your host, Wayne Mulder, and I'm excited to have you back with us again this week. I'm going to try to make this a short intro. I say that every week, some weeks it happens, some weeks it doesn't. But couple of things that I want you to know and to think about.
00;00;31;16 - 00;00;53;29
Wayne Mulder
First of all, the website OnTheBlueLine.com, be sure to check it out. Completely reworked in July. There's some great things on there. Every episode is also in video, so if that is more your thing, in fact, I've kind of changed the format and I am, as I've mentioned previously and I am actually focusing on the video and then just moving the audio over to the podcast.
00;00;53;29 - 00;01;15;00
Wayne Mulder
So if you want to see it as it was originally intended, then you will want to be sure to check out the video and it's available on YouTube. It's available on rumble or OnTheBlueLine.com, and every episode has its own show notes page in on there is a direct link to the audio, a direct link to the video as well as the transcription.
00;01;15;00 - 00;01;36;15
Wayne Mulder
So if you hear something and you want to look it up later to kind of see what it was that we were discussing, then you can easily do that just control left and you can easily search it. And then the last thing I want to mention is thank you, thank you. Thank you. To those of you who have been supporting us with the Buy Me a coffee and the donations through the website, we are 100% listener supported and we actually mean it.
00;01;36;26 - 00;01;55;01
Wayne Mulder
And I really do appreciate each and every one of you who have been resonating with with this message and have been supporting us in one way or another, or buying the merchandise or just listening and sharing it with your friends. That means the world to me. So thank you so much. So this week, let me tell you about our guest.
00;01;55;09 - 00;02;19;09
Wayne Mulder
This is a little bit longer of a bio, but he's done a lot of great things. So bear with me. But Michael Sugrue began his law enforcement career in the United States Air Force as a security forces officer in 98. As a security forces officer, Michael specialized in law enforcement, global force protection, anti-terrorism, nuclear security, foreign air field assignments and air base ground defense.
00;02;19;20 - 00;02;44;29
Wayne Mulder
Immediately after the Air Force, he was hired by the Walnut Creek Police Department, where he served in a variety of assignments. And he was awarded the Distinguished Service Medal in 2014 for his heroic and lifesaving actions during a fatal officer involved shooting in 2012. In 2018, he ultimately medically retired and is now a peer volunteer at the West Coast post-Trauma Retreat, which is something we talk about in this episode.
00;02;44;29 - 00;03;10;13
Wayne Mulder
And an ambassador for Save a Warrior. Michael's death is a dedicated advocate for awareness, prevention, education, training on post-traumatic stress injury and first responder suicide prevention. Michael continues to speak in law enforcement agencies all over the United States. And then what really is the focus of this interview is his bestselling book, Relentless Courage Winning the Battle Against Frontline Trauma, which was written with Dr. Shauna Springer.
00;03;10;22 - 00;03;33;28
Wayne Mulder
And they tackled the complexity of trauma within the law enforcement community and uncover the unspoken barriers and outlining a path to healing. Relentless Courage was released in the spring of 2022 and has been described by Lieutenant Colonel David Grossman, bestselling author of On Killing and on Combat, as one of the most important books of our time and the natural successor to honor combat.
00;03;34;27 - 00;03;55;19
Wayne Mulder
I couldn't agree more. This is a great book. You hear me mention it over and over in this podcast. It really is a different and unique break down with the way that it is. Both his story and what he went through. But then immediately you get Doc Springer's point of view on each incident. So I can't tell you.
00;03;55;20 - 00;04;06;29
Wayne Mulder
Definitely go to the show notes before or after, during whatever this episode and be sure to get a copy of this book. But without taking any more time, here's this week's guest. Michael Sugrue.
00;04;10;03 - 00;04;11;12
Wayne Mulder
Well, Mike, welcome to the show.
00;04;12;03 - 00;04;13;01
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Thanks for having me on.
00;04;13;10 - 00;04;32;10
Wayne Mulder
I'm glad we could make this work. We're going to get into the conversation here, obviously, as we go through it. And you've got a great book. I had the opportunity reading it this week, this relentless courage, and we're going to talk all about it. But before we get to that, let me start with some of my standard. Get to know your questions that I like to ask everyone when they come on.
00;04;32;10 - 00;04;36;25
Wayne Mulder
So I have to start with the most basic coffee or tea.
00;04;36;25 - 00;04;39;12
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Both iced tea and hot coffee. So.
00;04;39;23 - 00;04;44;10
Wayne Mulder
Okay. It's coffee. Usually morning's iced tea is usually that afternoon or.
00;04;44;23 - 00;04;45;18
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Exactly.
00;04;46;04 - 00;04;50;13
Wayne Mulder
Very good. I can't say that much different. But do you have much?
00;04;50;27 - 00;04;53;15
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Not much of a hot tea drinker but I definitely love. I see.
00;04;53;24 - 00;05;05;20
Wayne Mulder
Yeah. I'm kind of the same there. I went through a kick for a little while with hot tea in the evenings and then kind of got away from it. Do you have a favorite place to have that cup of coffee? Like a place that you just kind of relax, decompress.
00;05;07;05 - 00;05;23;04
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Well, I'd say the best place is on vacation, you know, on a balcony overlooking the ocean. So typically, if I go on vacation somewhere near Lake River or the ocean, so that would be my my number one spot. If it wasn't there, then I would just stay at home relaxing.
00;05;23;23 - 00;05;31;01
Wayne Mulder
Very good. I can't say I would blame you on either one of those. Do you have a best or worst travel story?
00;05;31;08 - 00;05;57;01
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
I actually have a very interesting travel story, so it's kind of long, but I'll try to make it short. And I went to Vietnam a few years ago, which was a Phnom Little experience. And on the way back we actually had a four day layover in Wuhan, China. And this was actually, believe it or not, this was on December 15th, 2019, and nobody knew about the COVID virus.
00;05;58;19 - 00;06;17;27
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
I certainly didn't know about it. I never heard of Wuhan, China, but we got a killer flight and that's why we ended up there. We got a special visa so we could exit the airport. And we took this crowded basically like subway from the airport to downtown Wuhan, went to a market. We had food, went to like a shopping mall.
00;06;17;27 - 00;06;45;04
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
I mean, literally we were around thousands and thousands of people. Nobody was wearing a mask. And, you know, again, spent the entire day there, took the subway back to the airport, got home about a week later. My daughter got super sick and she was okay, but it was all respiratory. She's never had breathing problems. So sick. In fact, the night of Christmas, 2019, she didn't want to open presents.
00;06;45;09 - 00;06;52;21
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Wow. And the doctor just said, well, it's some virus. You know, we don't know. And yeah. So it's just.
00;06;52;21 - 00;06;54;07
Wayne Mulder
Some virus that was there.
00;06;54;17 - 00;07;14;04
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Exactly. And I've got pictures to prove it. That's going to be my next book. We'll talk about that experience. But yeah, the funny thing is, I'd never heard of Wuhan, China. Now everybody knows Wuhan China. Right. But, you know, when I was there, I'm like, well, you know, I've never been to China, period, so I feel adventurous. Let's just go check stuff out.
00;07;14;19 - 00;07;30;06
Wayne Mulder
Yeah, that is absolutely crazy. Yeah. The week before the whole world shut down, I was in Orlando. I had a podcast convention in March, and we were all around each other. And I mean, we you kind of heard rumblings internationally of this virus, but no idea what was coming in the days after.
00;07;30;25 - 00;07;31;19
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Absolutely.
00;07;32;07 - 00;07;38;09
Wayne Mulder
Do you have a favorite and obviously you have your book, but besides your book, do you have a favorite or most meaningful nonfiction book?
00;07;40;25 - 00;08;03;03
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
One of my favorite books is actually The Body Keeps the Score. And I think the other close second to that is the Achilles in Vietnam. And these are actually books that I read recently as part of a yearlong program I was in with Mission 22. It's called the Recovery and Resilience Program. And they actually have required readings that we have to do every single month.
00;08;03;03 - 00;08;27;13
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
They provide the books. And these two books, you know, the body keeps the score for me was just a lot of personal insight into things that I personally dealt with health related, you know, physical symptoms of post-traumatic stress. And the Achilles in Vietnam really hit home because my best friend, John Davison, who I talk about in my book, he actually has his own chapter as well.
00;08;27;13 - 00;08;43;12
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
He was a Vietnam veteran. And so that book gave me some real insight into things that he just never talks about and into what our soldiers, you know, truly experienced over there. Right. And it was just I mean, gut wrenching and heartbreaking, the things that they endured.
00;08;44;00 - 00;08;50;23
Wayne Mulder
Oh, absolutely. No, I will definitely link up both those and I'm going to read them myself. I look forward to that. I've heard of mission 22.
00;08;52;03 - 00;08;58;19
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Great organization. And, you know, the nice thing is both those books are an audible, too. So you can actually listen to them if you don't want to read them.
00;08;58;28 - 00;09;19;21
Wayne Mulder
Yeah, that's huge. Well, plus, it let you do it while you're at the gym or walking and everything else. So that's perfect. I'll definitely link both those up with the audible as well form. So if you would, we'll just kind of start at the beginning, maybe a little bit of your origin story. Did you you grew up in a law enforcement family, I believe, but then from there decided to go in the military.
00;09;19;21 - 00;09;23;29
Wayne Mulder
Can you just kind of walk us through those early steps and then what eventually brought you into law enforcement?
00;09;24;27 - 00;09;46;09
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
So I was born and raised in the San Francisco Bay area. My parents got married very young, had me young. They end up getting divorced when I was about eight years old and a few years after that, my mom got remarried to my stepfather and he was the one that was in law enforcement. He was at the time a sergeant for a police department in Marin County.
00;09;46;09 - 00;10;06;26
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And then he later became a lieutenant for the Richmond Police Department. And I actually got the bug for law enforcement at that time of being eight years old because he kind of brought me into the fold and I became a volunteer for the Sausalito Police Department. I remember I got my first laminated ID card, you know, and I was just doing things like washing cars, filing paperwork.
00;10;07;09 - 00;10;29;25
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And the big highlight was riding with McGruff in the annual parade every year. But for me it was like really feeling part of something special and seeing that family and that camaraderie and carried on a little bit further in high school. When he had switched departments, I became a police explorer for the Richmond Police Department, and that's where I went through like a mini academy.
00;10;29;25 - 00;10;48;19
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
We had meetings all the time, but the highlight was was doing ride alongs with full time officers. And so I got to be in the front passenger seat, you know, seeing what these officers are doing day in and day out. And at the time, one of the most dangerous cities, not just in California, but in the nation. And that's where I solidified that.
00;10;49;05 - 00;11;09;16
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
This is what I was going to do. But my plan, it changed. I always had a plan, but it did change. And my goal was to go into the FBI. And so I knew going into the FBI, I had have a college degree, which was something I was going to do anyways. But I also knew I needed to have some work experience other than just that degree.
00;11;10;04 - 00;11;34;11
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And so I went and got a scholarship to the Air Force ROTC program and had my college paid for. When I graduated in 1998, I was commissioned as a second lieutenant in the United States Air Force, and I went into security forces, which is basically military police, anti-terrorism force protection, air base, ground defense. And my plan was to only do four years.
00;11;34;11 - 00;11;55;11
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
That was my commitment. Do four years, get out, apply to the FBI and press all of my life. Well, a couple key things happened was and the first was they actually offered me assignment in Germany, which I was not going to turn down. And by accepting that assignment extended my time in the Air Force. And a couple months after I got to Germany was when 911 happened.
00;11;55;29 - 00;12;15;14
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And shortly after that I was in the Middle East. And so, you know, I was really enjoying my time and seeing the world. And so I just really wasn't in a hurry to get out. But when I left Germany, I actually got assigned back to California. Travis Air Force Base, which was literally minutes from where I grew up.
00;12;16;01 - 00;12;25;06
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And it was at that time I made the decision that I was going to transition to civilian law enforcement, and I started applying to a bunch of different agencies here in the San Francisco Bay area.
00;12;25;24 - 00;12;39;19
Wayne Mulder
Okay. What kind of positions did you hold? You ended up at the Walnut Creek Police Department, if I'm correct, what kind positions that you hold in law enforcement and I know we all kind of do all of them, but like what are the big highlights?
00;12;40;16 - 00;13;10;29
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
So on the civilian side, you know, as a field training officer that I was actually undercover on a state drug task force for the state of California, the Bureau of Narcotic Enforcement. I was also an in-house detective, SIU Special Investigations Unit. I was promoted to sergeant where primarily I was just a patrol sergeant learning teams on the street, and I had additional duties of a driver, training instructor, public information officer, honor guard member, recruiting team.
00;13;10;29 - 00;13;12;20
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
I mean, you name it, I pretty much did it.
00;13;13;06 - 00;13;13;16
Wayne Mulder
Yeah.
00;13;15;16 - 00;13;35;20
Wayne Mulder
In the part of the reason I ask that question is I wanted to segway. There's a story in the book that you tell and obviously I want the readers to get the book is Relentless Courage Winning the Battle Against Front Line Trauma. And I've got a question about how that came together here in a minute. But you do have a story in the book where you talk about this traumatic incident with a team that may have been involved in a burglary.
00;13;35;20 - 00;13;45;10
Wayne Mulder
And you end up the two of you, you end up drawing down on him. Can you talk a little bit about that story or bring us into that?
00;13;45;10 - 00;14;05;23
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Yeah. So at the time I was undercover on the State Drug Task Force, and I really didn't do a lot of work in the city of Walnut Creek. But there had been a residential burglary that occurred in a school or sorry, near the high school in our town. And the in-house detective, he actually hit me up and asked if I would assist him on his his case.
00;14;05;23 - 00;14;24;26
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And we kind of had an idea of who may have done this, this burglary, and we thought it was a high school kid. And so we figured out that his mom actually worked in a commercial high rise building. And so our plan was to kind of scope out the building. We learned that the mom usually meets the son at the end of the day.
00;14;24;26 - 00;14;42;24
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
So the son would just show up at her building at the end of the day and they would drive home. And so we went down to this underground parking garage and we had the type of car we were looking for. It was a white Volkswagen Jetta Passat, I believe. I think it was beside it. And we got down to the garage.
00;14;42;24 - 00;15;00;25
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
We just split up and went separate ways and we weren't expecting anything because this is ours from school ending. And so we just wanted to find the car, take some photos of it, get a game plan together for later in the day. And so we were looking and sure enough, I see a car and the plate matches, the car looks empty.
00;15;01;10 - 00;15;18;26
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And literally as I walk up to the car, that's when a head pops up in the back seat and the door starts to swing open. And, you know, at this time I didn't look anything like a police officer. I had earrings in both ears. I had a long goatee, my head was shaved. I was wearing Air Jordans, l r g t shirt.
00;15;18;26 - 00;15;33;06
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
I mean, I looked like a dirtbag. And I remember I literally grabbed the door of my left hand. I lifted up my shirt. I had my gun in my badge there. I don't know if you saw it or not. And, you know, I didn't know if this was the kid. We thought it might be the kid. I wasn't sure if he was armed.
00;15;33;06 - 00;15;48;12
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And it was a very dynamic situation and I didn't know where my cover officer was. He was off in the other part of the garage and I was trying to keep it low key and just say, hey, you know, we're here to talk to you. And the kid just starts running, starts running from the car I start chasing after.
00;15;48;19 - 00;16;10;15
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And again, I don't know if he sees me or knows that I'm a police officer. I mean, I did lift up my shirt, but I can't be for sure that he saw it. He's running. I pull out my gun, I'm yelling him, Stop, stop. You know, put your hands up. And he starts reaching down in his waistband. And one of the things taken in this residential burglary was a fully loaded, laser sighted 38 revolver.
00;16;11;13 - 00;16;27;18
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And all I could think about was this kid's going to be pulling out a gun. And literally he starts to pull the gun out of his waistband. And I can't remember the exact words that I used by screamed a bunch of just bad words and a bunch of F-bombs and told him if he didn't drop, I was going to kill him.
00;16;28;09 - 00;16;49;10
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And thank God he froze at that moment and put his hands up and dropped to the ground. But I was literally a millisecond from shooting this kid a millisecond. And I remember once my partner came over, we got him cuffed up. I just I collapsed. I mean, it was the adrenaline, my emotions. You know, I've been in lots of dangerous situations.
00;16;49;10 - 00;16;59;01
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
I'd pulled my gun out numerous times. But I mean, I was so close from shooting this kid and probably killing this kid. And it just it affected me right then and there.
00;16;59;21 - 00;17;22;07
Wayne Mulder
Yeah. And I appreciate you sharing it again. I will say that obviously there's a larger story that I want the listeners to get the book and read that is kind of the premise of this whole book. It starts there and you go through it. But that story with this young man really resonated with me because it that we see play out every day and sometimes they do have even worse endings.
00;17;22;17 - 00;17;45;25
Wayne Mulder
And we don't think about in that moment, you know we don't you didn't like you said, I had no idea that this young man was the young man. Did he have that gun? Did he not have that gun? And all those things? Did he see my badge when he looked at it? And then the other powerful thing is the fact that in your book, not only does it have your recollections and reflections in that moment, but then we get to hear from Doc Springer in which she kind of talks about it.
00;17;45;25 - 00;17;52;19
Wayne Mulder
So how did that relationship come together? How did this idea for this book develop where? Because I think this is such a great format.
00;17;53;15 - 00;18;15;19
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
You know, it's actually it's a great story because I never envisioned this even happening in the first place. And so we'll go back to I believe it was actually before COVID happened and Doc Springer had reached out to me on LinkedIn. It was one of the biggest platforms at the time, and she just wanted to connect and wanted to talk and kind of introduce me to what she's doing and vice versa.
00;18;15;19 - 00;18;36;23
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And so we had a good conversation and she was talking about selling English and block a medical procedure for post-traumatic stress treatment. And I was talking about, you know, what I do as far as speaking and podcasts and my story, basically. And so I told her my story. And when we were talking, she actually asked me, you know, have you ever thought about writing a book?
00;18;37;12 - 00;18;56;20
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And I kind of laughed because she said, You know what? I've been asked this several times and I have thought about it, but honestly, I just don't think I can make it happen. I just told her because, you know, I'm so burnt out from post-traumatic stress and over 20 years of report writing, I don't know if I have the focus and concentration to get something like that done.
00;18;57;22 - 00;19;22;09
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And so we left the conversation at that. And then months later and now Covid's going on and she hits me up and she's like, Look in Doc Springer to give the listener's perspective. She is a clinical psychologist. She's worked with combat veterans most of her career, first responder. She's heard hundreds of traumatic incidents, stories. And she told me she's like, look, you're your story.
00;19;22;28 - 00;19;48;02
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
I can't forget it. Like, I can't stop thinking about it. She's like, Your story is going to resonate with countless people, and I really think that it can save lives. And she said, basically, I want to make this happen for you. And that's literally how this happened. And with it being COVID, we actually didn't even meet in person for over a year when we were working on this book, we had Zoom meetings almost every week, like 2 hours long.
00;19;48;02 - 00;20;13;09
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
They're recorded, you know, going back and forth. And it was a lot. I mean, this project literally took a toll. I mean, I bare everything in this book The Good, the bad, the ugly. But, you know, to have Doc Springer as my partner, to have that clinical perspective and she's someone that gets it. This isn't somebody that just studied and read about it.
00;20;13;21 - 00;20;33;28
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
She's lived it. She's literally saved countless lives. And so it was just like that. The stars aligned on this one. And I knew when she said, you know, I want to make this happen, I knew it was right. I knew she was the right person for this project. And I'm so glad that we did this because it is saving lives.
00;20;34;08 - 00;20;52;16
Wayne Mulder
Yeah, I have no doubt in the power of that. And just to assure the listener, you really do feel the experience that Doc Springer has specifically working in the law enforcement and military communities as you read this book and you can just tell from the way she talks or from the way that, you know, because yes, it's clinical.
00;20;52;22 - 00;21;18;21
Wayne Mulder
Yes. It's clearly grounded in her education training experience. But it also speaks to law enforcement professionals in a way that we hear it. When I was reading even some of her final thoughts in the book, it was pretty powerful. Just for myself. Some a question I want to ask you. I thought something that really stood out to me is a there was a sample of 700 officers and a study.
00;21;18;21 - 00;21;41;16
Wayne Mulder
And I don't know if you would put this out or where this it came from, but essentially it goes through a laundry list of like about a quarter of officers. I've seen a fellow officer injured or killed. About a third have been exposed to a badly beaten child, seriously injured, intentionally, and on and on it goes. What really struck me is out of that list, literally in every category I could put a checkmark.
00;21;41;16 - 00;21;53;05
Wayne Mulder
And I'm sure that's true for a lot of law enforcement officers out there. So is it fair to say that is trauma affect everyone in law enforcement no matter where they do this job or how long they've done this job?
00;21;54;02 - 00;22;15;26
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Absolutely. Doesn't matter how big of a city, how large, large of a city, whether you're a dispatcher, you know, you're in evidence tech, you're a patrol officer, your your custody officer, detention officer, the facts are that we see hundreds and hundreds of traumatic incidents over our careers. And that study that you mentioned, honestly, I think those numbers are low.
00;22;15;26 - 00;22;36;05
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
I mean, just like you, you know, I could check a box on every single one. And I mean, I've been to countless suicides, even just, you know, we don't think about it, but just the natural deaths, I mean, less natural deaths. I mean, seeing dead bodies, you know, of course, there's the homicides. There's the drownings. There's the accidental deaths.
00;22;36;15 - 00;22;53;13
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
There's major traffic incidents. You know, there's child abuse, there's, you know, marital abuse. I mean, there's all these things and people call us on the worst days of their lives. They don't call us on the best day of their life to tell us, hey, everything's going great. Do you want to come by and hang out and talk a little bit?
00;22;53;13 - 00;23;13;13
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
No, they call us as a last resort. You know, when they call 911, we're it. We're the ones that have to respond. No batter, no matter how horrific that situation is. And another thing that we talk about in this book is there is pure evil in this world. And I never saw pure evil until I started this profession.
00;23;13;21 - 00;23;15;08
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And it's out there and we see it.
00;23;16;14 - 00;23;36;20
Wayne Mulder
Yeah, that was in fact, that was one of the questions I was going to just point blank ask is whether or not pure evil exist. And the reason is because nowadays that seems to be used kind of flippantly. Like you'll hear people say, Well, that's evil, this is evil. But there is definitely a difference. And I like the kind of the dichotomy that you draw in the book is this difference between evil and someone who is simply making a bad mistake.
00;23;36;20 - 00;23;43;02
Wayne Mulder
But then there is actual pure evil out there. People who intentionally want to harm others.
00;23;43;02 - 00;24;05;12
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Absolutely. You know, I think the majority of the people that we deal with honestly are people in bad situations making bad decisions, whether that's because of trauma or substance abuse or financial issues. But like you said, you know, there is a small percentage of people out there who are pure evil and who is going to take care of them.
00;24;05;13 - 00;24;24;23
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
I mean, we're it you know, we are the last line when you talk about that active shooter situation, you know, when you talk about it, heinous domestic violence, call of a huge bar brawl, any of these types of scenarios, we have to go in. We have to take charge and we have to bring calm in order to chaos and disorder.
00;24;25;15 - 00;24;52;16
Wayne Mulder
You're absolutely right. And that's that is kind of the question, because if we don't hold up our end of the deal, if we don't do what we need to do, who else? And the answer is nobody. You're absolutely right. One of the other things that stood out to me and I just want to touch on this briefly is because in part of the reason I'm bringing this up is because it was another thing that really resonated with me, because I see the ill effects of this and that is forgetting key details in a traumatic event.
00;24;52;16 - 00;25;15;27
Wayne Mulder
We don't need to go into the whole event because I want everyone to get this book Relentless Courage and read it. However, there were some key details when you were having to recall this later that didn't come to you. And you do an excellent job between you and Doc Springer excuse me, taking us into that moment and that feeling of banks that, well, maybe they think I'm lying or maybe they think I'm, you know, because I can't remember this and I should remember this.
00;25;15;27 - 00;25;23;00
Wayne Mulder
And can you just take us into that a little bit and then kind of the assure city that this is normal, if you would?
00;25;24;14 - 00;25;56;02
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
You know, a lot of it is actually biological. And when things certain things happen, you know, we can get hyper focused, whether it's our vision or hearing. An example would be like in a incident that I talk about in great detail, was a man with a butcher knife that was trying to kill a couple, couple. And at that time, you know, when that weapon is presented to you, you're going to be hyper focused on the weapon, on the hands, and you may not be fully aware of all that's going on around you or what your partners are doing, what other officers are doing.
00;25;56;16 - 00;26;20;18
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And in these incidents, even when there's multiple officers in the same incident, they have different perspectives. They're seeing different things. They're hearing different things. And their responses may also be different. And so I think it's very important for non law enforcement, nonmilitary people to understand that, you know, hey, we're not perfect and b, you know, we're not going to see and hear everything.
00;26;20;18 - 00;26;52;08
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
It's, it's humanly physically impossible. And all we can do is, is do the best with what we have at the time. You know, we have to make split second life decisions. And it's the only profession other than maybe a doctor, which is a lot more controlled in a different type of environment. But when you talk about a combat soldier, when you talk about a first responder, a police officer, a firefighter, we have to make split second life decisions.
00;26;52;29 - 00;27;10;15
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And again, it's it's we have to base that on what we have at the time. What are the facts that we know? What have we seen? What have we heard? What are the resources available to us? And, you know, like you said, you may forget certain things and they can actually come back later on in my case and I go into detail about this.
00;27;10;15 - 00;27;35;04
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
But in that incident with the man with a butcher knife, it was a couple of nights later where I had a dream and remembered something that I had forgotten, and it wasn't anything that was really all that important, but it was a detail and it bothered me that I had forgotten that detail. I didn't remember it. And that's where that panic came in, where I thought, Oh my God, I don't want anybody to think I'm lying about this or hiding it.
00;27;35;07 - 00;27;50;22
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And again, it wasn't a significant detail, but to me, I was just so used to like, No, I have to know everything, I have to remember everything. And when these really big traumatic incidents happen, you're going to have tunnel vision, you're going to have tunnel hearing. I mean, it's just it's the facts.
00;27;51;08 - 00;28;21;18
Wayne Mulder
Yeah, it absolutely is. And I'm glad you touched on it. And I'm glad. And there are studies we're seeing it now, even like some of our policies and general orders and stuff have changed for when interviews and stuff after major incidents take place. Based on the science that's coming out on this, which is very powerful. But I really love the way that you guys describe it in this book because, again, it resonates even with first responders and, you know, people who we have a tendency of, oh, that's from a doctor.
00;28;21;19 - 00;28;36;00
Wayne Mulder
We have you know, we we immediately want to dismiss it. And what I love about this book is it talks to that person, that person who may be the one who would quickly dismiss a practitioner wanting to talk about an incident.
00;28;36;00 - 00;28;57;06
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
So that's here's the key thing about this book, too, is so when we first set out to make this book, the first thing we want to do and the most obvious purpose of this book was saving lives. We wanted to save first responder, military veteran lives because the facts are that we kill ourselves at a much higher rate than we die in the line of duty or in combat.
00;28;57;06 - 00;29;18;01
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Those are the facts, and I think that's very clear in this book. But the other thing that came out of this book and it's so huge is that, you know, this book isn't for just first responders and military people like and or their family members or loved ones. This book is for everyone and it literally is written in a way that everyone will understand it.
00;29;18;23 - 00;29;46;13
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
It's very easy to comprehend, and it lets you see the human side behind the badge, behind the uniform. And as an example, I work out every single day at the gym. It's part of my routine. It's part of my, you know, addressing my post-traumatic stress. And there's three guys at my gym who I didn't know I'd seen him for years, but I had known that they had some negative contacts with law enforcement.
00;29;46;13 - 00;30;04;26
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And I hit him up one day. When this book first came out, I introduced myself. I was like, look, you know, I know we've seen each other here. I don't know you you don't know me. But let me just give you a little bit about my background. You know, we just wrote this book. I said, but I want you to read it and I want your honest, no holds barred opinion.
00;30;04;26 - 00;30;32;06
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
The good, the bad, the ugly. I want to hear what you think about this. And so they all took it. And when they're done, I met with each one of them over lunch and we talked for 2 hours and they shared their experiences, some very negative experiences with law enforcement. And these experiences really, really angered me and made me outraged because, you know, there is a reality of some of this occurring and it has to be addressed.
00;30;32;06 - 00;30;56;12
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
But the beautiful thing that came out of this discussion was that they all said this changed their entire perspective of law enforcement officers, first responders. It let them see us as a human to understand that we go through the same things that they do, that we're dealing with not only these things at home, but hundreds of traumatic incidents on the job.
00;30;57;01 - 00;31;07;22
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And that is so powerful because that's something that we need to do, is we need to improve relations between law enforcement and the communities we serve. And I think this book can really help do that.
00;31;08;11 - 00;31;28;06
Wayne Mulder
I agree. That's beautiful. I'm glad to hear that story. And I kind of got that feeling as you get towards the end of it in the final chapters that you and Doc Springer, right, where you really talk about healing this divide and in some ways dealing with the same PTSD that is that we're dealing with that some of these communities are dealing with.
00;31;28;06 - 00;31;48;00
Wayne Mulder
So I really like how you guys draw that correlation in the book. Let me switch gears a little bit or actually kind of just take it to the next level. So you you deal with and talk about law enforcement culture and what should be kind of the default or what should we do when it comes to this whole mantra of calls don't affect me?
00;31;48;12 - 00;32;04;13
Wayne Mulder
So you talk about, you know, your field training officers and going out certain calls and this whole well, I can't let this bother me. And there is some truth to that. Like I even liken it. I like how you talk about death because that's something that I mentioned a lot as well, that it's not normal to see as much death as we see in our career.
00;32;04;22 - 00;32;27;14
Wayne Mulder
And I'll talk to officers who will go out to like child deaths or something like that that actually is horrific. Or even if it's like a SIDS type, that's still horrific. And they'll be like, well, I just don't see it as a child. I see it as a doll, and that's how I deal with whatever it is. So what do we do with this whole calls don't affect me mantra that is so pervasive and permanent in our field.
00;32;28;11 - 00;32;45;26
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
You know, we have to change it in the academy. I mean, we have to start there and we have to go through the ranks and change it at every level. But, you know, I remember when I went through the police academy, we had 880 hours of training and everything's, you know, dictated by the state. There's mandated training, so many hours of this and that.
00;32;45;26 - 00;33;04;07
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
But what we didn't have was any exposure into the realities of the toll of the job, you know, exposure that, hey, this is this is what you're going to see. This is what you're going to deal with. And, oh, by the way, this is how it's going to affect your family. It's going to affect your physical health, your mental health.
00;33;04;18 - 00;33;32;07
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
You know, we need to plant that seed in the academy. And I think one of the easiest ways to do that is bring in senior officers or senior firefighters or paramedics or dispatchers, have them come in for a couple hours. You know, these people need to be transparent, vulnerable and willing to talk about this stuff and just bear it and share it and plant that, see that this is a reality that this could happen to you.
00;33;32;21 - 00;33;58;05
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
You know, because we spent countless hours training to protect ourselves against the bad people, right? The bad guys, the criminals, defensive tactics, firearms, evasive, driving. All these things are resting control techniques, but we don't train on taking care of ourselves. And the most ironic thing about that is, like I said, is that we are much more likely to die by our own hands than the hands of another.
00;33;58;19 - 00;34;23;23
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Yeah. So why don't we start addressing that and let's take that a step further. When you start field training, which is right after the academy and you're paired up with senior training officers, usually four or five different officers, you know, I remember we went to calls and they were very, you know, just horrible calls because they want to send you the worst of the worst when you're in training to get you exposed to these things before you get cut loose on your own.
00;34;24;01 - 00;34;43;09
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And I remember joking about these calls with my training officer afterwards, and that's where I learned, Oh, yeah, we don't acknowledge this. We just joke about it, brush it off and pretend like it doesn't exist, doesn't bother us, and that only works for so long. So we need to do instead of that is, you know, after each call, we already take time to debrief it.
00;34;43;21 - 00;35;03;19
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
We talk about the legalities. We talk about, hey, how are we going to document this officer safety issues. If it's pertinent, why don't we talk about the human side of it? Why don't we have that training officer start the conversation first and just say, Look, you know, I got to tell you, that car accident we just went to, I can't get the image of that girl out of my mind.
00;35;04;03 - 00;35;30;26
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
You know, seeing her in the crosswalk like that, it's really bothering me. It's really affecting me. And I need to decompress. I need to just get this off my shoulders right now, you know, but make that kind of conversation normal because right now that conversation isn't normal. It's actually abnormal. And so that's where we change the culture is by just talking about this stuff routinely when it happens again, not making it a huge thing, but just addressing it.
00;35;31;17 - 00;35;54;29
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
You can go through a full 20, 30 year career and come out healthy both physically and mentally on the other side. But if you don't address it, if you pretend like it doesn't bother you, there's going to be a day where there's a tipping point. And that day almost cost my life. And that's the reality of this, because I didn't address it and I suffered in silence for years while I almost lost everything.
00;35;54;29 - 00;35;57;18
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And that's the reality of going on today.
00;35;58;06 - 00;36;20;10
Wayne Mulder
Yeah. And sadly, I mean we've lost couple officers to suicide at our but I've worked with as well in last couple of years, in fact a month after I started this podcast 2019. So it's a real it's a life and death struggle that we're in when we talk about this is there no place? And I kind of liked how Doc Springer had talked about this as well.
00;36;20;10 - 00;36;38;20
Wayne Mulder
But is there no place for gallows humor or is and what I'm referring to there obviously for the listener, is this what you touched on with joking and laughing kind of as a way to decompress or to kind of take your mind off of the reality of whatever you're looking at going on, which is very common in cop circles.
00;36;38;29 - 00;36;51;15
Wayne Mulder
Is there no place for that or is it more of that's going to happen? And we need to discuss this and be honest about what we're actually experiencing, what we're actually feeling in the fact that these thoughts or whatever really are bothering us.
00;36;52;20 - 00;37;16;00
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
I think the reality is that is going to still happen, you know, but if we can lessen that and have more real conversation, I think that's the key. You know, and the stuff takes time. I mean, you know, we can we can address it with officers that are just starting out, but we're talking about ten, 15 year veterans, you know, people that have been doing this job and they're set in their ways, you know, things going to take time.
00;37;16;01 - 00;37;48;20
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
It takes time to change a culture. It takes time to change the system. But the question is, can you be that person to help make that change? And we're all in a position and you don't have to be a supervisor. You don't have to be an official leader. You know, the facts are that, you know, if you have a week longer on than this person, you know, you may know a little bit more than they do, or maybe you have a few years on them, but maybe you pass on that that knowledge and that wisdom and be real about it.
00;37;48;20 - 00;38;14;00
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And just like I said, be vulnerable. Because if our leaders aren't going to be vulnerable, our supervisors are going to be vulnerable. Why would we ever be vulnerable ourselves? We need the people to make an example and set the example by showing this is okay, this is accepted, and I'm going to do it and show you that if you ever need to do it, I'm here to listen to help.
00;38;14;00 - 00;38;34;13
Wayne Mulder
And if they don't as leaders, it's going to be interpreted as weakness. Or if they don't do it, the those who work under them is going to interpreted as weakness. And they're not going to because they're going to want to be like, you know, Sergeant so-and-so, Lieutenant so-and-so. You know, these guys that I came into the career under, and I'm sure you did as well.
00;38;35;22 - 00;39;01;11
Wayne Mulder
So what is one step when we talk about these things? And obviously you talked about a very good point that I think sometimes is lost in the conversation, even though I think we need to start immediately with a lot of these things. It's going to take time to change the culture as people retire on and so forth. But if you were going to sit down and I'm sure you have in what you're doing and talk to administration, what is the one thing that you would encourage them to get started on today?
00;39;01;11 - 00;39;09;04
Wayne Mulder
Like what are those action steps that this is where we start, guys, this is the thing. What is that one thing?
00;39;09;04 - 00;39;33;00
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
You know, I think it's by leading by example. And so if we're talking about a police chief or sheriff and if we're talking about in a training setting, maybe where you have a large audience, where you have most of the department president, maybe it's a monthly training or an annual training, you have that leader start that conversation and you have them be vulnerable and transparent, because I guarantee you they've been through hardship.
00;39;33;00 - 00;39;57;10
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
I guarantee you they've had their personal life affected by the job. I guarantee you their physical, mental health have been affected at some point. And so, you know, our youngest officers need to see that, but also our veteran officers need to see that. And that is true leadership. And we're seeing it more and more in the military. I mean, I've been seeing generals and command chiefs in the Air Force that are coming out openly.
00;39;57;10 - 00;40;19;09
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
These these leaders are on active duty and they're sharing their vulnerability, whether it's on podcasts or it's in symposiums or in trainings. But that really lets people know that it's okay if the person at the top is talking about this and they're they're admitting to it and they're being vulnerable, that means that I can do it, too. Yeah.
00;40;20;08 - 00;40;43;00
Wayne Mulder
Yeah. And being someone who I'm fortunate to be at an agency who is very forward thinking in these areas. And I will say that, yes, that is such a key component, is that having the people at the top actually walk the walk and do exactly what we're hearing. And what they're saying is huge because it's easy to be like, okay, this is this is the plan.
00;40;43;00 - 00;40;53;25
Wayne Mulder
This is what I'm going to do. And to follow that example, one other thing that I want to just quickly touch on is when we talk about healing trauma, how important is connection with other people?
00;40;55;15 - 00;41;26;00
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Absolutely critical. You know, I when I was at the height of my suffering, I felt completely alone. I felt like there was nobody who would understand me. Nobody would get what I was going through. There wasn't anybody at my department that I felt comfortable talking to about this stuff, about the thoughts that I was having. And it wasn't until a week or two after I started therapy, when I finally asked for help and my therapist told me about these first responder support meetings and they're just an hour long discussion meeting.
00;41;26;00 - 00;41;57;21
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
They're not associated with any agency. They're run by volunteers. This one was held at a church and I went and that was the very first time that I heard my brothers and sisters, you know, paramedics, firefighters, cops, dispatchers who are openly sharing and being vulnerable. And I didn't share it first, but went to about three or four meetings until I finally got the strength and courage to share, to get this stuff off my chest, off my shoulders, because other than my therapist, there wasn't anybody had ever told the stuff to it all.
00;41;57;21 - 00;42;16;21
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
I was expecting people to be shocked or run out of the room or, you know, give me dirty looks or look down upon me and it was the exact opposite. I mean, people were just supporting me left and right, you know, saying, here's my number. You can call me anytime, day or night. If you ever want to meet for coffee or lunch, just just give me a call.
00;42;16;21 - 00;42;39;18
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Give me a text. I'm there for you, you know, just literally putting their arms out and doing whatever they could to help me. And it's a kind of baffled my mind for me because I'm wondering, like, I just met these people a couple weeks earlier and I can now fully open up and talk to them and trust them and know that there's not going to be any ramifications for what I'm sharing and that they have my back.
00;42;40;02 - 00;43;03;02
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
But I looked back and why can I do that with people I was serving within my department and on the streets, the ones that I knew I could trust in a very dangerous, volatile situation. I knew they had my back. I knew they would be running towards danger with me. But why is it that I didn't have the trust or the the comfort, I guess, to open up and share with them?
00;43;04;11 - 00;43;21;08
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Because part of me was always trying to put up this perfect image that I'm a badass, that, you know, nothing is wrong. I don't make mistakes like nothing affects me. And I think we're so caught up in this, you know, that uniforms on. And I've got to be perfect. I've got to look perfect. I've got to act perfect.
00;43;21;08 - 00;43;32;08
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
I've got to be perfect. Yeah, and that's okay. You can just you can display that out there on the street and we're dealing with the public. But why can't we be vulnerable with our brothers and sisters in uniform?
00;43;33;05 - 00;43;54;17
Wayne Mulder
Yeah. No, that's super important. And something that I talk about also. And when I read that, I really resonated with me as well, because I do think that connection with others both in formal like you're describing and informal, just, you know, I had a great corporal that I worked with for a couple of years. He was my corporal on the road.
00;43;54;27 - 00;44;16;09
Wayne Mulder
And that was one of the highlights is every evening when calls would slow down in those early morning hours, we would just go talk. And it wasn't always like, you know, it wasn't having to get into this deep work. Like a lot of people think. Sometimes it's just, Hey, how are you doing? And bullshitting. But you knew that if there was something bothering you, you could discuss it with each other.
00;44;16;09 - 00;44;25;14
Wayne Mulder
And there were plenty of times that we did, and that in of itself was very healing. So I don't think it can be understated how important human connection is to the healing process, at least in my opinion.
00;44;27;03 - 00;44;43;19
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
Now, you're absolutely spot on. And, you know, that's the thing is like with this book is I'm not unique and I'm not special. And, you know, this book's been out for about almost 16 weeks now, and I've gotten countless messages from people talking about how it resonated with them and how they could relate to so much in this book.
00;44;43;22 - 00;45;06;19
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And that's the key, is that we're all going through it. We're all experiencing similar feelings or thoughts. You know, we're all exposed to similar traumatic incidents, but we just don't talk about it. But the facts are that there's countless brothers and sisters out there who do get it. They do understand it. You just have to be willing to open up and be willing to ask for help if you need that help.
00;45;07;11 - 00;45;11;20
Wayne Mulder
Absolutely. What is smashed? The stigma Mindy used specifically.
00;45;13;26 - 00;45;33;03
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
That means to get rid of the stigma that sharing feelings and asking for help is a weakness, that it's shameful because it's not sharing feelings and asking for help is strength in its courage. And that's where we need to smash the stigma, because the stigma is all around asking for help.
00;45;34;26 - 00;45;52;06
Wayne Mulder
Very good. No, I think that's I love it. I like how you guys took that and changed it a little bit. The book is Relentless Courage Winning the Battle Against Front Line Trauma. What other projects do you have going on and what is next for you and your mission? I know you teased maybe having another book on the horizon.
00;45;52;06 - 00;46;11;19
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
You know, I'm retired, I'm enjoying retirement. I have a beautiful daughter that I have half the time and she's my world. She's actually turning 12 tomorrow and. She's my focus. You know, I want to be involved with her school stuff, with her sports. You know, I drop her off her day, I pick her up and she's my priority and.
00;46;11;19 - 00;46;36;11
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
So, you know, truly, I am enjoying retirement. And I do speak I speak all over the United States. And I do enjoy that. But I try not to do too much. It's all about balance these days. And as far as any books on the horizon, there's nothing else planned. There's there's really nothing else I'm working on. There is a documentary called Residual, which is being made right now.
00;46;36;24 - 00;47;01;14
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And there's a bunch of different first responders who are involved in that, you know, paramedic firefighters, police officers, and they're still doing interviews. So I think that's going to be out. I don't know the exact time frame, but maybe a year from now. And I've already been interviewed for that. But primarily it's just balancing being a father, enjoying life and speaking when I can and just trying to get the message out there.
00;47;01;14 - 00;47;23;02
Wayne Mulder
Very good. Well, it's all very important work. I got to ask you my one question, which really everything we've discussed could be the answer to. However, I end every episode with one specific question, so we'll drill it down for everyone. But what is the one take away? The one thing that law enforcement officers can do today? They'll make a difference in their personal lives.
00;47;23;02 - 00;47;42;06
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
It's communication I made I made this mistake early on day one of the police academy. I made a decision that I would never bring the job home. I would never talk about it. I thought I was protecting my family. You know, I want to keep them separated. The job was here. My family was there. Eventually that cost my marriage.
00;47;42;25 - 00;47;59;07
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
And the truth is, is that we need to talk about when we're having that bad day. We need to let our family members know that it's not them. It's not anything they did. It's not why we're in a bad mood. It's because of something we saw at work and it's affected us and we need to start that communication.
00;47;59;07 - 00;48;13;08
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
You can start it right now. You don't need to wait for some huge incident. Start that communication tonight. Today, open up because when you need it most, like I did, it's not going to be there.
00;48;14;14 - 00;48;31;04
Wayne Mulder
That's great. That's wonderful advice and very true. So very true. Thank you, Mike. I appreciate you coming on. I will everything will be linked up in the show notes so that you, the listeners definitely get this book. I cannot recommend it enough. And Mike, I appreciate your time and thank you for coming on.
00;48;31;21 - 00;48;34;29
Sgt. Michael Sugrue- Ret.
It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
00;48;40;07 - 00;48;57;02
Wayne Mulder
And that does it for this week's The Interview Room. I hope you really enjoyed it. Another great guest will be with us again next week. We have a great line up for you here over the next few weeks and I'm through the rest of the year, so you're definitely not going to want to miss a single episode. We also have morning Roll Call, which typically comes out on Monday mornings.
00;48;57;02 - 00;49;15;07
Wayne Mulder
However, I may change my mind and who knows? It could come on different day of the week, but morning roll call, check that out as well. That's just me talking to you. And it gives us a few minutes to go over something, anything from news or something actionable that matters, hopefully to you. One last favor, please please. Please.
00;49;15;07 - 00;49;33;21
Wayne Mulder
Whatever service you are looking at or whatever service you are watching this on, you're listening to this on, please leave us a rating and review five stars that would be the appropriate number of stars if for some reason it's not five stars, in your opinion, or if it is, tell us why we would love to hear it. I would love to get your feedback.
00;49;33;21 - 00;49;50;24
Wayne Mulder
In fact, I'm going to start reading some of these reviews on the air. I been looking at some of the ones on Apple Podcasts and thank you, thank you, thank you for the phenomenal reviews and thank you all for taking the time to listen to this. I hope you're really enjoying it. You all have a safe week out there and I will see you next week in the interview room.
00;49;50;24 - 00;49;55;14
Wayne Mulder
I will see you next week in Morning Roll Call. But in the meantime, I'll see you on the blue line.