PODCAST: How important is Humility for Law Enforcement Leaders with David Hollenbach | TIR 055
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How important is Humility for Law Enforcement Leaders with David Hollenbach | TIR 055
David Hollenbach
Meet this Weeks Guest: David Hollenbach
Battalion Chief David Hollenbach (retired) is the author of “Fireproof: Your Grand Strategy for Transforming Failure into Fuel for Your Future.” He is an international best-selling author, motivational speaker, coach, and mentor. He owns and operates David Hollenbach Consulting, LLC, and hosts the popular podcast “From Embers to Excellence.” During his 23-year career in the fire service, he served as a
• Firefighter
• Apparatus Driver/Pump-Operator/Engineer
• Company Officer/Lieutenant
• Battalion Chief in Operations
• Chief of Special Operations
• Critical Incident Stress Management (CISM) peer counselor
• Public Safety Rescue Diver
• Coordinator and developer of his department’s first leadership development program
David Hollenbach is a veteran of the United States Navy with a Master's Degree in Public Administration from Barry University. A major focus of research for his capstone was how strong, positive leadership can influence the culture of a large organization.
While studying at Barry University he published "The Firefighter's Creed" and “Women in the Fire Service: A Diverse Culture Leads to a Successful Culture,” an article highlighting the importance of gender diversity within the fire service in Fire Engineering Magazine.
He has spent years as an instructor, coach and mentor helping others define and realize success. Although he no longer works as a servant to the community, his passion for service to others remains stronger than ever.
Show Notes from This Episode
The On The Blue Line Podcast and Community has the mission of Empowering Cops in their personal lives and educating the public on the realities of law enforcement. This law enforcement podcast is focused on providing concepts, ideas, and actionable steps that can make a difference in your life. The morning roll call is a weekly monologue show with Wayne Mulder. The Interview Room podcast is an interview style format hosted by Wayne Mulder.
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CONNECT with David:
· WEBSITE: https://www.hollenbachleadership.com/
· YOUTUBE: @FromEmberstoExcellencePodcast
· TWITTER: @HollenbachLEAD
· FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/DavidHollenbachConsulting/
· PODCAST: From Embers to Excellence
BOOKS by David:
· BOOK: Fireproof: Your Grand Strategy for Transforming Failure into Fuel for Your Future.
RESOURCES mentioned:
· BOOK: The Warriors Creed by Rogers Sparks
· WEBSITE: GoRuck.com
· FILM: Generation Kill HBO
AFTER the episode:
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On The Blue Line was founded and is operated by active-duty law enforcement to fulfill the mission of providing guidance, resources and community for law enforcement officers, first responders, and military personal in their off-duty lives.
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TRANSCRIPTION OF EPISODE. Please note this is a new service we are offering and there will be spelling, grammar and accuracy issues. This transcription is offered as a convenience to our listeners, but at this time it is not guaranteed to be accurate.
00:00:04:03 - 00:00:07:13
Wayne Mulder
Welcome
00:00:13:02 - 00:00:29:10
Wayne Mulder
Welcome, my friend, to the On the Blue Line podcast with Wayne Mulder, and I am your host, and I'm so grateful that you have found us. I hope you had a wonderful holiday season and we are back to our normal the interview room, which is our show that releases on Thursday. This is probably going to be my shorter central ever.
00:00:30:00 - 00:00:48:04
Wayne Mulder
If you've been listening to the morning roll calls up till now, which is our other podcast that releases on Mondays, then you are aware that I've got a lot going on, all good things, but this is not the only thing I do. I also work full time in the career that I talk about. So for that reason there's a few priorities that I have to deal with.
00:00:48:04 - 00:01:06:14
Wayne Mulder
And so the podcast is not taking second seat, but maybe not getting all the attention. I wish I could give it. However, to by the end of January, some of the new things that I've been talking about and teasing will be coming out as my schedule will be freeing up a little bit to bring those to you. So I hope you're enjoying it.
00:01:06:21 - 00:01:48:15
Wayne Mulder
I really appreciate you listening, and just because I have to rush does not mean that this week's guest is not phenomenal and that there's a lot to be gotten out of today's podcast. So I sit down with Battalion chief David Hollenbach, who's retired during his 23 year career in the fire service. He was a firefighter apparatus, driver, pump operator, engineer, company officer, lieutenant, battalion chief and operations chief of Special Operations and a critical incident Stress management peer counselor, which we do spend some time in this conversation talking about, as well as his battle, his journey with PTSD and what he's doing since then.
00:01:49:02 - 00:02:23:05
Wayne Mulder
He is the author of Fireproof Your Grand Strategy to Transforming Failure into Fuel for Your Future. He is an international bestselling author, motivational speaker, coach and mentor. He owns and operates David Hollenbeck Consulting, LLC, and hosts the popular podcast From Embers to Excellence. I really enjoyed sitting down with Dave. I thought we had a great conversation. And even though obviously his career was in the fire service, there was so much crossover that helps law enforcement officers and really everybody, no matter what your path or journey has been.
00:02:23:05 - 00:02:33:24
Wayne Mulder
So without taking any more time, here's this week's guest. David, how about Oh, well, Dave, welcome to the show.
00:02:35:06 - 00:02:36:20
David Hollenbach
Thank you. Thank you very much.
00:02:37:03 - 00:02:41:16
Wayne Mulder
Yeah, I'm glad we could finally make this happen. It's always a challenge getting schedules to come together.
00:02:42:09 - 00:02:47:01
David Hollenbach
Yeah. Yeah. And we had a couple of hurricanes in there that delayed things as well.
00:02:47:07 - 00:02:58:02
Wayne Mulder
That doesn't help for Floridians. Not at all. Well, let me start, as I always do, my easy questions. Coffee or tea, sir?
00:02:58:02 - 00:02:58:11
David Hollenbach
Well.
00:02:58:20 - 00:03:09:07
David Hollenbach
It really depends on the time of day. You know, we're we're in a southern state. Uh, sweet tea in the afternoon is always good. And I've got to have coffee in the morning.
00:03:09:15 - 00:03:10:14
Wayne Mulder
Now, Are you from the South?
00:03:10:14 - 00:03:14:01
David Hollenbach
Originally that I was born and raised in Orlando.
00:03:14:06 - 00:03:17:11
Wayne Mulder
Okay, so, yeah, Sweet tea would have to be on that list. I would say.
00:03:19:11 - 00:03:30:18
Wayne Mulder
Now, coming from Indiana, it's a different, you know, Where's your favorite place to have that drink as far as where's that peaceful place to have a sip of coffee in the morning, kind of relax and just kind of get ready for your day.
00:03:31:09 - 00:03:44:04
David Hollenbach
Uh, you know, out on the back patio. I live on a golf course that's been closed down for a while, so it's nice out behind.
00:03:44:14 - 00:03:44:24
David Hollenbach
Uh.
00:03:45:10 - 00:03:55:00
David Hollenbach
I'll be out in the house. Just got to fairways side by side, a lot of trees, big pond, and there's always ducks.
00:03:55:00 - 00:03:56:07
David Hollenbach
And.
00:03:56:07 - 00:04:03:12
David Hollenbach
Like, sandhill cranes and stuff walking around back there. So it's nice in the morning when you got that early morning dew and maybe.
00:04:03:12 - 00:04:04:14
David Hollenbach
Even, you know, a.
00:04:04:14 - 00:04:10:02
David Hollenbach
Little bit of fog rolling across there. So it's pretty relaxing and it's quiet neighborhood.
00:04:10:02 - 00:04:26:15
Wayne Mulder
So absolutely. Yeah. And that large piece of property where the golf course used to be always becomes kind of like a that nature preserve. Yeah. Why are there so many what year did that one shut down how many years ago? And the reason I ask is we've got like three golf courses around here that I can think of than residential communities that are no longer golf courses.
00:04:26:15 - 00:04:28:15
David Hollenbach
They're just Yeah, yeah.
00:04:30:02 - 00:04:41:02
David Hollenbach
I think golf courses are just so expensive to maintain and this one shut down. It's funny, it was like six months after I moved into this house.
00:04:41:02 - 00:04:41:14
David Hollenbach
It shut.
00:04:42:18 - 00:04:45:02
Wayne Mulder
Out. Now, are you a big golfer?
00:04:45:02 - 00:04:50:23
David Hollenbach
Not really, but I was, you know, I golf just I'm not that good. And I was like, you know.
00:04:51:12 - 00:04:57:21
David Hollenbach
Oh, play more and better than okay.
00:04:58:14 - 00:05:00:24
Wayne Mulder
Do you have a best or worst travel story?
00:05:02:18 - 00:05:06:16
David Hollenbach
Yeah. I mean, I think we all we are we all have those.
00:05:06:16 - 00:05:06:20
David Hollenbach
Uh.
00:05:07:21 - 00:05:33:18
David Hollenbach
Yeah, my, my best. I got to say, probably going to Europe. I had a nice trip where I got to spend like six days in Rome, and then fruit flew to Munich, spent like five days there, and then flew to Paris and spent six days there. And it was pretty frickin awesome.
00:05:34:04 - 00:05:35:12
David Hollenbach
Know, I'm sure got.
00:05:35:18 - 00:05:38:05
David Hollenbach
I got to see a lot of cool stuff.
00:05:39:00 - 00:05:42:19
David Hollenbach
Um, worst hmm.
00:05:44:20 - 00:05:45:09
David Hollenbach
And that.
00:05:45:21 - 00:05:49:18
David Hollenbach
Probably.
00:05:49:18 - 00:05:50:03
David Hollenbach
Yeah.
00:05:50:16 - 00:05:53:03
David Hollenbach
I probably won't go into that one.
00:05:53:19 - 00:05:54:16
David Hollenbach
Fair enough.
00:05:55:16 - 00:06:03:17
Wayne Mulder
That's pretty bad. But it's so bad it can't make the cut. No, the beautiful European vacation. Was that pre-COVID? I'm hoping.
00:06:04:08 - 00:06:06:18
David Hollenbach
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That was like back.
00:06:06:18 - 00:06:07:06
David Hollenbach
In.
00:06:07:11 - 00:06:10:14
David Hollenbach
L.A. It was 2015, 2016.
00:06:10:14 - 00:06:11:16
David Hollenbach
So like.
00:06:12:06 - 00:06:15:01
David Hollenbach
The Notre Dame Cathedral that was still.
00:06:15:01 - 00:06:17:16
David Hollenbach
Intact. You know, the fire hadn't occurred.
00:06:17:16 - 00:06:25:13
David Hollenbach
And this I really didn't know what to expect going there. I'd never been before.
00:06:25:14 - 00:06:28:00
David Hollenbach
And I.
00:06:28:00 - 00:06:53:05
David Hollenbach
I found everybody was you know, there's all those stereotypes like how the French hate Americans. Out of the whole time that I was there, there was one person and they were pretty insignificant. They were like a cashier in a museum gift shop. And apparently they had their opinions about Americans.
00:06:53:12 - 00:07:08:23
Wayne Mulder
The right It's funny you say that. I was listening to a radio host this summer. He went on a vacation and obviously now we're post-COVID. The world is what it is. But he said the same thing. He said, actually, a lot of the people he interacted with, you know, loved Americans love the fact that he was over there.
00:07:08:23 - 00:07:14:13
Wayne Mulder
And, yeah, it was very interesting listening to because it's not what you hear, Right. You always hear the the opposite.
00:07:15:06 - 00:07:16:13
David Hollenbach
Yeah, it was.
00:07:16:13 - 00:07:17:03
David Hollenbach
I mean, I got.
00:07:17:19 - 00:07:39:10
David Hollenbach
Just having dinner when I was, like, struggling to order something because, you know, there are most people are polyglot. You know, they speak three or four languages over there. And usually one of those languages is English. But then you have like the.
00:07:40:14 - 00:07:41:01
David Hollenbach
You know.
00:07:41:18 - 00:07:56:21
David Hollenbach
Waiters and waitresses that maybe from another European country, but might not speak English. So you'll have other patrons that hear you trying to speak and they come.
00:07:56:21 - 00:08:00:21
David Hollenbach
Over, Oh, American, let me can do you mind?
00:08:01:00 - 00:08:25:15
David Hollenbach
And then they're like excited about being able to speak English. And I you know, I got invited to this guy's mother's house for a real French meal, and I think I didn't go, but I got invited. And, you know, there was like some expats from I want to say it was.
00:08:25:15 - 00:08:28:12
David Hollenbach
Kenya or but then.
00:08:28:14 - 00:08:30:06
David Hollenbach
It was Kenya. So there.
00:08:32:18 - 00:08:33:06
David Hollenbach
S like.
00:08:33:06 - 00:08:44:07
David Hollenbach
Six Africans that were at this restaurant and they'd been living in Paris for a while and they were telling me like, Oh.
00:08:44:07 - 00:08:44:21
David Hollenbach
No.
00:08:45:13 - 00:09:18:20
David Hollenbach
And in France you don't drink. GRAHAM And yeah, because I was I thought I was being fancy. Get the after dinner drink grandma and yeah. And they're like, oh no, you know, here and they, and they just started ordering all these zapper teas so that I could try and I, I could barely walk out of there. Was it just really friendly people and it's a, it's kind of like a melting pot somewhat like San Francisco or New York or you know, there's all these cultures that come together and everybody was really amazing.
00:09:18:21 - 00:09:25:01
David Hollenbach
I mean, I thought it was a beautiful, beautiful city with a lot of really friendly people.
00:09:25:16 - 00:09:37:21
Wayne Mulder
Very cool. Yeah, that is a great trip. Well, let me ask you the last of these type questions. What is your favorite modern nonfiction book other than your own, Of course, but other than yours, what is your favorite modern nonfiction book?
00:09:38:19 - 00:09:43:02
David Hollenbach
The one that I think was.
00:09:43:02 - 00:09:43:11
David Hollenbach
You know.
00:09:43:11 - 00:09:43:22
David Hollenbach
Kept.
00:09:43:22 - 00:09:44:07
David Hollenbach
Me.
00:09:44:07 - 00:10:11:01
David Hollenbach
Engaged the entire time. And it's an it's a pretty thick book, but it's man, it is so good. It's called The Warriors Creed by Roger Sparks. And I interviewed Roger on my podcast, and I've met him. He's just this incredible human being, and he lives in Alaska.
00:10:11:07 - 00:10:11:20
David Hollenbach
And.
00:10:12:19 - 00:10:47:18
David Hollenbach
He's involved with this nonprofit called Force Blue. Force Blue is an organization that does coral reef restoration around the globe. Interesting. Their science divers are actually combat divers like special ops guys from like the Navy SEALs, Marine Corps, Air Force Recon, Green Berets. I mean, it's just like some really bad ass dudes that have PTSD and they bring them together and do these missions.
00:10:47:18 - 00:11:02:24
David Hollenbach
And it's pretty cathartic and they're, you know, helping to restore coral reefs. And and so Rudy Reyez and Roger Sparks are like the two main guys. Rudy Reyez and Roger Sparks.
00:11:03:15 - 00:11:04:11
David Hollenbach
Were in.
00:11:04:22 - 00:11:27:13
David Hollenbach
The Marine Corps together, Force Recon Guys and Rudy Reyez is another guy that I interviewed. Rudy is the one that introduced me to Roger. Rudy played himself in the HBO mini series Generation Kill, which follows this.
00:11:28:09 - 00:11:28:23
David Hollenbach
You know.
00:11:29:12 - 00:11:31:11
David Hollenbach
Marine Corps Force Recon unit.
00:11:31:19 - 00:11:32:01
David Hollenbach
On.
00:11:32:01 - 00:11:44:11
David Hollenbach
The initial invasion of Iraq. And, you know, Rudy was there and he like, was working as a subject matter expert.
00:11:44:15 - 00:11:45:03
David Hollenbach
On.
00:11:46:02 - 00:12:12:10
David Hollenbach
On the show, and they didn't have anybody to play him. So they were like, hey, you want to is like, yeah, I'll do it. So he plays himself. Yeah. And he's a really interesting character. I interviewed him and then he introduced me to Roger and before I well, actually he told me about Roger's book. So I got the book and I was like, Holy shit, man, I got to I got to talk to this guy.
00:12:12:10 - 00:12:21:09
David Hollenbach
And Rudy was nice enough to introduce me and Roger, when he left the Marine Corps, didn't like.
00:12:21:09 - 00:12:23:19
David Hollenbach
Being a.
00:12:23:19 - 00:12:25:14
David Hollenbach
Civilian, so he.
00:12:25:21 - 00:12:26:03
David Hollenbach
Ah.
00:12:26:17 - 00:12:55:18
David Hollenbach
Can't remember exactly. I think it was just like things slowed down too much for him, right? So he went back into the military, but he decided instead of being like, you know, a top of the food chain predator, you know, Predator killer guy, he joined the Air Force and became a PJ. So on the other side of things where he was saving lives instead of taking.
00:12:55:18 - 00:12:56:22
David Hollenbach
Them and.
00:12:58:06 - 00:13:02:20
David Hollenbach
And he he ended up earning.
00:13:03:03 - 00:13:03:12
David Hollenbach
You know.
00:13:03:12 - 00:13:52:20
David Hollenbach
Being awarded the Silver Star for his actions over in Afghanistan as a PJ And that's just like this incredible story where he was lowered down into this like really heavy firefight in the mountains of Afghanistan during Operation Bulldog Bite. And the Roger's like six foot eight, six foot nine, like super tall guy. Yeah. And he's like running, grabbing bodies and pulling them back to where they had everybody gathered and like, there was dead guys that he was stacking up to block the gunfire from hitting the guys that were still alive.
00:13:53:04 - 00:14:22:24
David Hollenbach
So he was doing like this emergency trauma, the procedures to just like stabilize these soldiers, get them behind this wall of bodies for some cover and just hold off the enemy. And it's just him and one other. PJ And they wouldn't bring anybody else in because it was just so hot, right? And and it's just this incredible, incredible story.
00:14:24:10 - 00:14:26:22
David Hollenbach
And he does such a great job.
00:14:28:17 - 00:14:29:16
David Hollenbach
With with.
00:14:29:16 - 00:14:42:03
David Hollenbach
Just the book. But he also he's the one talking in the audio version of the book as well. So it's just even just like this.
00:14:43:04 - 00:14:43:09
David Hollenbach
That.
00:14:44:08 - 00:15:11:01
David Hollenbach
I think and let me give a warning about this. If you're going to listen to it, maybe do it on walks or runs or something, because like I was traveling back and forth to Panama City when I was listening to it. And, you know, I struggle with PTSD and and that's from my time in the in the fire service and some of the stuff that he talks about, like was really triggering.
00:15:11:12 - 00:15:41:22
David Hollenbach
And like, I ended up having to fall over on the side of the highway just to, like, get out some of the emotion. Is it really it it's it's pretty intense. And it does it does a great job of really putting you there. And and then, like I said, he's just this incredible like the stuff that he has seen and done and the life that he's led is incredible.
00:15:41:22 - 00:15:42:09
David Hollenbach
And then to.
00:15:42:09 - 00:15:43:05
David Hollenbach
Have him.
00:15:43:20 - 00:15:44:19
David Hollenbach
Like, he's such a.
00:15:44:19 - 00:15:48:12
David Hollenbach
Humble dude and.
00:15:48:21 - 00:16:13:14
David Hollenbach
Does so much for the veteran community and he's got a special needs son honors is his name. And if you buy if you buy his book from the Go Rock website, those proceeds go into a trust for his son.
00:16:13:14 - 00:16:17:05
David Hollenbach
So it's a know.
00:16:17:13 - 00:16:29:21
David Hollenbach
I just that that book is one that the conversations that I've had surround and in that book and the conversations I have had with Roger.
00:16:31:08 - 00:16:31:23
David Hollenbach
You know, have.
00:16:32:08 - 00:16:40:04
David Hollenbach
Clearly impacted me. So I always recommend that book if if I find the opportunity.
00:16:40:23 - 00:17:03:12
Wayne Mulder
Powerful and I will link all that up for the listeners. And as they know and I enjoy listening to the Audible, so I'll do the same and check that out when I am on walks and at the Jim Powerful, powerful stuff. So no, I definitely will look that up and also link it up to the Go Rock site so they can sell those proceeds further.
00:17:03:13 - 00:17:18:24
Wayne Mulder
Any books that they buy will go to him. So let's get a little bit into your story. You kind of mentioned it a little bit with the fire service. Let's move into your origin story, something that maybe as a starting point that I find curious is, was it something you always I know you mentioned growing up in Florida.
00:17:19:08 - 00:17:28:01
Wayne Mulder
Is that is it something you always want to do? Is going to the military or eventually some sort of service business like fire rescue or what was kind of your path?
00:17:29:02 - 00:18:15:06
David Hollenbach
Yeah, when when I was born, my dad was still in the Navy. So he was in the Navy. My mom was a cashier in the Navy exchange on the base in Orlando. It has since closed down, but it was a recruit training center and naval training center back then. And that's where the the nuke school was. So any of those nuclear propulsion people, you know, with the the aircraft carriers and the submarines that are nuclear powered, they would go to school in Orlando.
00:18:15:08 - 00:18:28:12
David Hollenbach
And that's what my dad did. He was there for he was part of a helicopter squadron, but they met in the Navy exchange, got.
00:18:28:12 - 00:18:31:17
David Hollenbach
Married and had me and.
00:18:31:17 - 00:18:36:14
David Hollenbach
My dad got out probably a year or two after.
00:18:37:20 - 00:18:38:19
David Hollenbach
I was born.
00:18:39:08 - 00:18:45:06
David Hollenbach
And then he went into the fire service and and back then the fire.
00:18:45:06 - 00:18:48:09
David Hollenbach
Department paid shit.
00:18:50:05 - 00:18:54:21
David Hollenbach
You know, even worse than they do now.
00:18:54:21 - 00:18:55:06
David Hollenbach
And.
00:18:55:14 - 00:19:15:22
David Hollenbach
And so he worked a second job as a respiratory therapist in the hospital. So and then my mom, you know, she became a nurse. And there's always I've just always been around this kind of service to others.
00:19:16:05 - 00:19:19:15
David Hollenbach
And, you know.
00:19:19:18 - 00:19:49:09
David Hollenbach
I mean, the first fire truck I ever sat on, I was probably three years old, and it was the fire station like two blocks from the house I grew up in. And as a two story firehouse, you had a pole, a fire pole on either side of the trucks and one to the rear of the trucks. And that was the first fire pole ever slid down, was at that station.
00:19:49:09 - 00:19:54:07
David Hollenbach
And, you know, I grew up wanting to be a firefighter.
00:19:54:07 - 00:19:56:07
David Hollenbach
And then, you know.
00:19:56:08 - 00:19:57:19
David Hollenbach
When I got older, like.
00:19:57:19 - 00:19:59:18
David Hollenbach
Me and my dad had.
00:19:59:18 - 00:20:02:08
David Hollenbach
Our kind of falling out type of thing.
00:20:02:17 - 00:20:03:06
David Hollenbach
We all did.
00:20:03:16 - 00:20:07:21
David Hollenbach
And I was like, I'm never going to be a firefighter, you.
00:20:07:21 - 00:20:15:15
David Hollenbach
Know, and I'm going to be better than that. And but then for.
00:20:15:15 - 00:20:26:06
David Hollenbach
Some reason, that was what I aimed my my rage at was the fire service. And I still wanted to be in the Navy because, you know, Top Gun and all that.
00:20:26:06 - 00:20:27:09
David Hollenbach
And of course.
00:20:28:02 - 00:20:33:16
David Hollenbach
And so I had I had aspirations of going in to, you know, the Naval Academy and.
00:20:33:16 - 00:20:34:19
David Hollenbach
Becoming a.
00:20:34:20 - 00:20:42:21
David Hollenbach
Naval aviator. And I just didn't have the grades. So I enlisted.
00:20:42:21 - 00:20:44:04
Wayne Mulder
Okay. Different experience.
00:20:44:18 - 00:20:48:01
David Hollenbach
Yeah. And and then.
00:20:49:02 - 00:20:52:04
David Hollenbach
When I was in high school, I just destroyed my right.
00:20:52:04 - 00:20:55:14
David Hollenbach
Leg, had multiple.
00:20:55:14 - 00:20:57:08
David Hollenbach
Surgeries, had hardware in.
00:20:57:08 - 00:20:57:12
David Hollenbach
It.
00:20:57:23 - 00:21:11:11
David Hollenbach
And they wouldn't take me initially until I reinjured it. And they removed the hardware. And as soon as I got those screws out, I was like, Ah, let's see if they'll take me now.
00:21:12:03 - 00:21:14:09
David Hollenbach
And and they did. Wow.
00:21:14:22 - 00:21:18:12
David Hollenbach
I just had to sign some papers that basically.
00:21:19:23 - 00:21:20:22
David Hollenbach
You know.
00:21:20:22 - 00:21:45:24
David Hollenbach
Made it to where if I reinjured my leg, you know, they wouldn't be held accountable or whatever. Right. And then it, I re-injured I broke the same damn leg and and was medically discharged after like 14 months. So then that's when I was like, you know, I guess I'll go do the fire department.
00:21:45:24 - 00:21:46:08
David Hollenbach
Thing.
00:21:48:22 - 00:21:53:04
Wayne Mulder
Where so always in central Florida is where you were in the fire service.
00:21:54:01 - 00:21:54:11
David Hollenbach
Yeah.
00:21:54:12 - 00:22:18:24
David Hollenbach
Yeah, I well, when, when I decided to go to the fire academy, I went, I moved down south. So I was in Jupiter. Jupiter, Florida, sort of the northern end of Palm Beach County. I went to Indian River Community College for their fire academy and became a volunteer.
00:22:19:12 - 00:22:21:04
David Hollenbach
For Martin County.
00:22:21:08 - 00:22:21:17
David Hollenbach
Fire.
00:22:21:17 - 00:22:22:05
David Hollenbach
Department.
00:22:22:20 - 00:22:29:18
David Hollenbach
So there's Palm Beach County, Martin County, and then Saint Lucie County. And it's at the north end of Saint Lucie County.
00:22:29:18 - 00:22:30:08
David Hollenbach
Where.
00:22:30:13 - 00:22:41:07
David Hollenbach
The fire Academy was. I was like two counties away, going to school, working in Palm Beach County and volunteering in Martin County. And and that was.
00:22:42:00 - 00:22:42:08
David Hollenbach
A.
00:22:42:14 - 00:22:48:07
David Hollenbach
You know, it was an okay experiences. You know, Martin County back then was pretty sleepy.
00:22:49:23 - 00:22:50:22
David Hollenbach
You know, a much.
00:22:50:22 - 00:22:55:14
David Hollenbach
Larger elderly population. So most of the calls were.
00:22:55:14 - 00:22:57:01
David Hollenbach
Medical or.
00:22:57:05 - 00:23:01:02
David Hollenbach
Auto accidents caused by people.
00:23:01:02 - 00:23:02:00
David Hollenbach
That shouldn't.
00:23:02:00 - 00:23:03:10
David Hollenbach
Have had a driver's license.
00:23:03:10 - 00:23:03:21
David Hollenbach
You know.
00:23:04:05 - 00:23:05:11
Wayne Mulder
That's Florida. Yes.
00:23:06:09 - 00:23:25:05
David Hollenbach
And so that was I mean, it was just an okay deal. But I I knew that they were hiring at the department that my dad retired from or he had left.
00:23:26:04 - 00:23:26:10
David Hollenbach
The.
00:23:26:22 - 00:23:37:04
David Hollenbach
That's like the fourth largest fire department in the state of Florida. He had left and went to the state fire marshal's office. He was an arson investigators.
00:23:37:05 - 00:23:39:08
Wayne Mulder
That's what was going to happen. So he was working as an investigator. Oh.
00:23:39:18 - 00:23:44:22
David Hollenbach
Yeah. And and a dog handler. So he had an accelerant sniffing dog?
00:23:45:03 - 00:23:45:10
David Hollenbach
Yep.
00:23:46:06 - 00:24:15:17
David Hollenbach
And he you know, he did some incredible things for the fire service and for law enforcement. And he was just always very humble. And it wasn't until he retired that I realized, like, how impactful his career was, you know, after, like, going to his retirement luncheon and hearing all these people that had come from all over the country to, like.
00:24:15:23 - 00:24:17:07
David Hollenbach
Talk about them and.
00:24:17:07 - 00:24:41:22
David Hollenbach
Roast them and, you know, all that stuff. Oh, yeah. But it was just it was really cool. I talk a little bit about it in my book Fireproof, just because, you know, we all have these these things that we're not very proud of. And for me, early on in my my career, you know, I was pretty jammed up.
00:24:41:22 - 00:24:51:10
David Hollenbach
I was a really aggressive firefighter. I loved what I was doing. But I feel like even back then, I was starting.
00:24:51:10 - 00:24:52:06
David Hollenbach
To.
00:24:52:12 - 00:25:07:14
David Hollenbach
Experience some indicators that I was dealing with PTSD. I mean, I saw some really horrific things very early on in my career, and it was in a compressed time frame and I was like.
00:25:08:04 - 00:25:09:17
David Hollenbach
Man, you know.
00:25:09:17 - 00:25:36:06
David Hollenbach
I even asked after this one call where this this ten year old girl got just drilled by a car. She was running across this roadway to get to the other side to go to a bus stop. And and she was chasing her friends, really. They made it across. And she was just a little bit heavier than her friends and just got drilled.
00:25:36:10 - 00:25:39:16
David Hollenbach
And when we in.
00:25:39:18 - 00:25:42:16
David Hollenbach
The station was like two blocks from.
00:25:42:22 - 00:25:45:05
David Hollenbach
Where it happened.
00:25:45:05 - 00:26:00:08
David Hollenbach
So we got there real quick. I was the first one off the truck and when I looked at it, you know, all the traffic was stopped and her shoes were like 50 yards away and it looked like somebody had taken a machete.
00:26:00:08 - 00:26:01:08
David Hollenbach
To her leg.
00:26:03:02 - 00:26:05:05
David Hollenbach
And it was dragging behind her.
00:26:05:05 - 00:26:06:14
David Hollenbach
And, you know.
00:26:07:03 - 00:26:12:06
David Hollenbach
For those that are in law enforcement and fire, you've seen that look.
00:26:12:09 - 00:26:13:04
David Hollenbach
Where.
00:26:14:07 - 00:26:18:00
David Hollenbach
It it's that fight or flight response.
00:26:18:00 - 00:26:24:00
David Hollenbach
And it's the animal in the victim that is.
00:26:24:00 - 00:26:39:08
David Hollenbach
Trying to escape the predator that is attacking. And it's just that look of terror. And I've got to get away. And she was clawing her way in the roadway away from.
00:26:40:01 - 00:26:41:17
David Hollenbach
The car that hit her. Yeah.
00:26:41:18 - 00:26:48:00
David Hollenbach
And and so, you know, I had to stop her and package her up.
00:26:48:00 - 00:26:51:13
David Hollenbach
And, you know, we.
00:26:51:21 - 00:26:53:10
David Hollenbach
They actually saved her leg.
00:26:54:12 - 00:27:00:10
David Hollenbach
And and she survived. Well, but it was it.
00:27:00:10 - 00:27:12:10
David Hollenbach
Was when we got back to the station that I, I asked some questions because I just had a dead baby the day before and the shift before.
00:27:13:05 - 00:27:15:12
David Hollenbach
You know, had a 18.
00:27:15:12 - 00:27:17:04
David Hollenbach
Year old on a motorcycle.
00:27:17:04 - 00:27:19:21
David Hollenbach
That.
00:27:19:21 - 00:27:28:17
David Hollenbach
You know, T-boned the plumbing truck, because the plumbing truck didn't stop at a stop sign. And his head was split open.
00:27:28:17 - 00:27:33:10
David Hollenbach
Like a melon and.
00:27:33:11 - 00:27:39:21
David Hollenbach
His body was like a sack of rocks. There was a solid piece of bone in his body.
00:27:40:13 - 00:27:41:05
David Hollenbach
And.
00:27:42:06 - 00:27:45:02
David Hollenbach
Mind you, this is like within the first six months of my.
00:27:45:02 - 00:27:46:10
David Hollenbach
Career, you know.
00:27:47:00 - 00:28:11:01
David Hollenbach
And and it's over the course of two shifts. So there's there's a lot of other calls that go in there. But it was it was that call with that that girl that when we got back to the station because it was right before my relief that there, you know, was the call was a late call on the shifts or was right after or right before shift change.
00:28:11:01 - 00:28:15:06
David Hollenbach
And and so both crews were there in the bay.
00:28:15:20 - 00:28:16:24
David Hollenbach
And and.
00:28:18:03 - 00:28:19:17
David Hollenbach
I asked I'm like, you.
00:28:19:17 - 00:28:21:07
David Hollenbach
Know, it's just like.
00:28:22:10 - 00:28:53:24
David Hollenbach
Last couple of shifts, a lot of really crazy stuff, you know. And you guys have been doing this for like 20 years, but do you guys ever having nightmares or, you know, what do you do to, like, deal with those images in your head? And and this guy who's very well-respected was like a special ops firefighter guy, and he's sitting at the head of the table that was you know, it was like the smoking table out in the bay.
00:28:54:08 - 00:28:54:15
David Hollenbach
Yeah.
00:28:55:20 - 00:29:09:14
David Hollenbach
And he just like, slams his hands down on the table, pushes back away, and it's like, Jesus fucking Christ, you fucking hear this, kid? I tell you what, you're getting off right now, right? Launch. You drive down Home Depot.
00:29:09:14 - 00:29:09:16
David Hollenbach
You.
00:29:10:01 - 00:29:33:11
David Hollenbach
Fill out an application, because clearly this isn't the job for you. And I was like, I was like, No, no, I mean, I'm fine. I just was, you know, concerned about you guys. You've been doing it for so long. It's hard for me to believe that seeing this stuff day in and day out has impacted you. But if if you're saying that.
00:29:34:03 - 00:29:34:16
David Hollenbach
You know.
00:29:35:12 - 00:29:37:04
David Hollenbach
You don't have any issues, then.
00:29:37:17 - 00:29:38:01
David Hollenbach
You know, I.
00:29:38:01 - 00:29:39:18
David Hollenbach
Guess I won't either.
00:29:39:18 - 00:29:40:22
David Hollenbach
And I.
00:29:40:22 - 00:29:43:13
David Hollenbach
Learned a lesson that day that I should never.
00:29:43:13 - 00:29:47:01
David Hollenbach
Ever mention if something.
00:29:48:05 - 00:29:53:19
David Hollenbach
Is bothering me. And 15 years after that.
00:29:55:08 - 00:29:56:19
David Hollenbach
I was a.
00:29:57:18 - 00:29:59:22
David Hollenbach
I was the chief of special operations.
00:30:00:15 - 00:30:01:19
David Hollenbach
And it.
00:30:01:19 - 00:30:03:23
David Hollenbach
Was all over the news. You may remember this.
00:30:04:09 - 00:30:05:06
David Hollenbach
A car.
00:30:07:02 - 00:30:09:21
David Hollenbach
Was clipped by another car and.
00:30:09:21 - 00:30:10:04
David Hollenbach
It.
00:30:10:19 - 00:30:29:13
David Hollenbach
Ended up getting knocked into oncoming traffic and swerved through that traffic. It hopped a sidewalk through a parking lot, through the front wall of this daycare center. On the other side of that front wall.
00:30:30:01 - 00:30:30:21
David Hollenbach
Was.
00:30:31:06 - 00:30:54:24
David Hollenbach
Three and four year olds sitting down to snack time at this little table. And beyond that little table of three and four year olds was another wall. And beyond that wall was a playroom full of four and five year olds. And the back wall was a solid concrete block wall, which is where the car came to rest with.
00:30:55:08 - 00:30:55:21
David Hollenbach
You know.
00:30:56:03 - 00:31:12:21
David Hollenbach
Four or five, maybe six kids underneath it. And I was one of the first chief officers on scene. And so you, you know, just bunch of little bodies and and it was horrific.
00:31:13:16 - 00:31:16:04
David Hollenbach
And and when.
00:31:16:10 - 00:31:44:23
David Hollenbach
I left work, I went to the hospital where I knew they were taking this one little girl in particular because she was one that I had, because at one point I had like six little kids that I was just getting ready to, you know, just getting them ready to be transported to the hospital. And then, I mean, at that point, I was like all hands on deck, you.
00:31:44:23 - 00:31:45:07
David Hollenbach
Know.
00:31:45:13 - 00:31:47:22
David Hollenbach
Chief officers were doing.
00:31:48:06 - 00:31:52:15
David Hollenbach
Patient care. Yeah. And and so.
00:31:52:18 - 00:31:54:12
David Hollenbach
I went to the hospital.
00:31:55:22 - 00:31:57:12
David Hollenbach
And.
00:31:57:12 - 00:32:03:11
David Hollenbach
You know, the nurses were doing their job. They're like, no, you know, we can't let you know who's here and who isn't.
00:32:05:03 - 00:32:08:05
David Hollenbach
Just, you know, maybe.
00:32:08:05 - 00:32:14:19
David Hollenbach
One of the parents will will come down. And I was like, well, that would be great if you would let them know that I was there.
00:32:14:19 - 00:32:17:10
David Hollenbach
And, you know, I'd love to talk to them.
00:32:18:02 - 00:32:20:10
David Hollenbach
And and they're just happy to be.
00:32:20:15 - 00:32:21:05
David Hollenbach
One of the.
00:32:21:05 - 00:32:24:14
David Hollenbach
Mothers of one of the children was there in the lobby.
00:32:24:23 - 00:32:25:04
David Hollenbach
And.
00:32:25:04 - 00:32:25:14
David Hollenbach
Came.
00:32:25:14 - 00:32:26:01
David Hollenbach
Over.
00:32:26:03 - 00:32:27:11
David Hollenbach
And she was like, You were there.
00:32:27:11 - 00:32:29:01
David Hollenbach
And I said, Yeah.
00:32:29:22 - 00:32:37:20
David Hollenbach
And she and she just started thanking me. And she told me that her son was one of the boys underneath the car.
00:32:38:16 - 00:32:41:23
David Hollenbach
And, and, you know.
00:32:41:23 - 00:32:42:19
David Hollenbach
He had a broken.
00:32:42:19 - 00:32:43:08
David Hollenbach
Arm.
00:32:44:04 - 00:32:52:11
David Hollenbach
And he was just like, he was like such a tough little dude when we pulled him out from under there. And she was telling me that, you know, he would love.
00:32:52:11 - 00:32:55:00
David Hollenbach
To to meet me and.
00:32:55:11 - 00:33:02:04
David Hollenbach
And it was at that point where I had kind of like, let myself experience what had just happened.
00:33:02:14 - 00:33:06:09
David Hollenbach
Yeah. And I, I broke.
00:33:07:11 - 00:33:33:11
David Hollenbach
And that was, I think, one of the first times that I really thought to myself, man, I, I think I might need to get some help because, I mean, like in public, I crumpled like a little kid and was crying and this woman, like, wrapped her arms around me and, and I and I saw and and I just I was struggling after that.
00:33:33:18 - 00:33:34:17
David Hollenbach
And a.
00:33:35:00 - 00:33:37:11
David Hollenbach
Couple of lieutenants that worked.
00:33:37:11 - 00:33:38:04
David Hollenbach
Under me.
00:33:38:23 - 00:33:41:19
David Hollenbach
Were, like expressing concern.
00:33:41:19 - 00:33:43:06
David Hollenbach
And was like.
00:33:43:18 - 00:33:51:17
David Hollenbach
You know, and here I am. I'm the chief of special operations that, you know, it's all these type-A personalities, these like.
00:33:52:17 - 00:33:53:01
David Hollenbach
The.
00:33:53:12 - 00:34:06:23
David Hollenbach
Top of the food chain dudes that I'm being vulnerable to. And and it was very uncomfortable. Very, very uncomfortable. But I look.
00:34:06:23 - 00:34:07:13
David Hollenbach
Back.
00:34:08:15 - 00:34:14:01
David Hollenbach
Because I, I did get some help, but I don't know that.
00:34:14:01 - 00:34:15:10
David Hollenbach
I went as.
00:34:15:10 - 00:34:26:20
David Hollenbach
Far as I should have because, you know, I just ended up shoveling more stuff down on top of that. And it wasn't until like 2019.
00:34:26:20 - 00:34:29:19
David Hollenbach
That I really.
00:34:30:21 - 00:34:33:04
David Hollenbach
Really broke.
00:34:33:04 - 00:34:36:15
David Hollenbach
You know, I, you know, and.
00:34:36:16 - 00:34:39:11
David Hollenbach
Will see it. And people that we.
00:34:39:11 - 00:34:41:14
David Hollenbach
Work with when they're.
00:34:42:02 - 00:34:46:01
David Hollenbach
Struggling with something and it well, at times it's cumulative.
00:34:46:11 - 00:34:51:07
David Hollenbach
Right. You know and they're I don't.
00:34:51:07 - 00:35:01:02
David Hollenbach
Care what anybody says. Yeah, it might be getting better, but the stigma is still there and nobody wants to admit that they're having mental health issues.
00:35:01:19 - 00:35:02:10
David Hollenbach
You know.
00:35:02:22 - 00:35:14:13
David Hollenbach
Because there's still this idea that we that we allow to penetrate our brain and our belief system that we're somehow less than or weak.
00:35:15:04 - 00:35:18:05
David Hollenbach
Or broken if we.
00:35:18:23 - 00:35:19:18
David Hollenbach
Seek help.
00:35:20:04 - 00:35:20:10
Wayne Mulder
Yeah.
00:35:21:03 - 00:35:30:10
David Hollenbach
But if we don't, I guaran frickin tell you that at some point. I mean, you might make it through your career without destroying that.
00:35:31:06 - 00:35:32:20
David Hollenbach
But you might.
00:35:32:20 - 00:35:54:07
David Hollenbach
End up losing your marriage. You might end up alienating your children. You might destroy some of your really good friendships. I mean, you might not lose your career, You might be able to retire. But, I mean, like, just since I've left the fire service and guys that I, you know, looked up to that just seemed.
00:35:54:16 - 00:35:56:04
David Hollenbach
Like they were ten.
00:35:56:04 - 00:36:06:24
David Hollenbach
Feet tall and bulletproof. They I mean, so some of those guys, they they broke after a couple of years of being retired.
00:36:07:07 - 00:36:09:17
David Hollenbach
Yeah, Yeah.
00:36:10:06 - 00:36:13:20
David Hollenbach
Just off the top, two guys it bullets.
00:36:14:03 - 00:36:18:14
David Hollenbach
You know and and I think and there's all.
00:36:18:14 - 00:36:42:09
David Hollenbach
Those suicides that don't get registered as suicides. I think, you know, the ones where they, they drink themselves to death or, you know, accidental overdose on pain killers or, you know, drunk driving accident where they, you know, drive themselves into a wall.
00:36:42:09 - 00:36:43:05
David Hollenbach
Yeah. You know.
00:36:43:05 - 00:36:55:08
David Hollenbach
There's there's a lot of suspicious deaths that I think are directly linked to PTSD and like, not getting the help.
00:36:55:08 - 00:36:59:00
David Hollenbach
That we desperately need. Yeah.
00:36:59:18 - 00:37:14:06
David Hollenbach
But that's when people start screwing up at work or start turning into assholes. Like when you start looking at yourself and like, why am I such an asshole? Well, you know, you're probably dealing with.
00:37:14:12 - 00:37:16:06
David Hollenbach
Some shit, you know? Yeah.
00:37:16:14 - 00:37:18:04
Wayne Mulder
It's time to reach out that moment.
00:37:19:05 - 00:37:28:11
David Hollenbach
Well, I feel like had I done some good self-care early in my career and got into those good habits.
00:37:29:16 - 00:37:34:13
David Hollenbach
I, you know, maybe I.
00:37:34:13 - 00:37:37:21
David Hollenbach
Wouldn't have had these mood.
00:37:37:21 - 00:37:38:10
David Hollenbach
Change.
00:37:38:24 - 00:37:40:00
David Hollenbach
Mood changes.
00:37:40:00 - 00:37:42:00
David Hollenbach
And, and but, you.
00:37:42:00 - 00:37:52:11
David Hollenbach
Know, relationship issues and stuff. I, I don't know. You know, it just seems like that would be a lot easier.
00:37:52:11 - 00:37:52:24
David Hollenbach
Yes.
00:37:53:06 - 00:38:06:07
David Hollenbach
To turn nipped in the bud early on. You know like we were talking before the CISM you know critical incident stress management like we have all these teams like I was I was one of them.
00:38:06:07 - 00:38:12:24
Wayne Mulder
Well, I was going to ask where that came in the storyline. Was that something you did later in your career or. Okay.
00:38:13:11 - 00:38:22:05
David Hollenbach
Yeah, it was. It was later. I, I was like, you know, I looked up to them.
00:38:22:17 - 00:38:23:22
David Hollenbach
You know, and I and.
00:38:24:08 - 00:38:47:09
David Hollenbach
I was the only chief officer that I knew of that got certified. And and I did it because I knew there was other chief officers that were putting on this facade, you know, and being all tough. But they're seeing the same shit. And ultimately, when they're on one of those big calls and they're making decisions AS.
00:38:47:19 - 00:38:50:18
David Hollenbach
Yeah, you know.
00:38:50:18 - 00:38:56:12
David Hollenbach
I don't think a lot of people realize that you internalize those decisions when they don't work out.
00:38:57:21 - 00:38:58:08
Wayne Mulder
Yes.
00:38:58:18 - 00:39:00:03
David Hollenbach
Because it was your call.
00:39:00:03 - 00:39:02:14
David Hollenbach
Ultimately, you know, you.
00:39:02:14 - 00:39:14:04
David Hollenbach
Might be taken advice from the people that are right there with their hands on. But it's your decision. And if and if there's a death or.
00:39:15:14 - 00:39:16:19
David Hollenbach
No, I mean an.
00:39:16:19 - 00:39:21:15
David Hollenbach
Injury of one of your guys. I mean, it's you take it personally.
00:39:21:24 - 00:39:42:18
Wayne Mulder
You absolutely do. Yeah. As a frontline supervisor myself on a critical incident now, there was a hire supervisor that was on there. But yeah, same thing. You are absolutely right on how the decisions we make also wear on you, especially in that doesn't even always have to be negative outcomes. Sometimes it's like, well, this could have went better.
00:39:42:18 - 00:39:47:07
Wayne Mulder
Or I could, you know, you sit there and beat yourself up with all the different ways it could have been handled.
00:39:47:22 - 00:39:48:22
David Hollenbach
Yeah, Yeah.
00:39:50:06 - 00:40:07:14
Wayne Mulder
You talk, you talk a little bit, Dave, about self care and there's a lot of conversation. In fact, I think you had John Kelley on your podcast as well, but I had a law enforcement life coach. I had him on mine. In fact, that was the episode that released this week, even though we talked a long while ago.
00:40:07:14 - 00:40:29:02
Wayne Mulder
And this is what that entire episode was about, was this idea of self care. So could you what are some of the things that you've now identified that you wish you knew early in your career? Like, what would you have done differently? And twofold, I'm assuming when you talk about those early days, you know, because you were saying like the first six months of your career, you didn't have CISM and so forth at that time.
00:40:29:13 - 00:40:47:14
Wayne Mulder
Yeah. So there wasn't any kind of debriefs, there wasn't any kind of conversations around what people were feeling and experiencing, you know, like what you were saying. So what are some of the self-care things if you went back and talked to yourself at that time that you would want to put into place?
00:40:47:14 - 00:40:59:19
David Hollenbach
Well, I would have. It's a lot easier now to get that kind of care. But back then.
00:40:59:19 - 00:41:00:01
David Hollenbach
One.
00:41:00:01 - 00:41:21:00
David Hollenbach
Of the biggest things, one of the biggest mistakes that I made was on my days off. I mean, part of the culture was going out and drinking. You know, that was a way to put those calls in the back, you know, push them down and just try and forget about them.
00:41:21:00 - 00:41:21:21
David Hollenbach
You know, the.
00:41:23:15 - 00:41:28:22
David Hollenbach
The sleep issues were were always pretty bad for me.
00:41:28:22 - 00:41:30:12
David Hollenbach
And one thing.
00:41:30:12 - 00:41:44:03
David Hollenbach
That I didn't and this is one something that I'd like to talk about briefly and I've got a thing on my website, the resources page that if people aren't familiar.
00:41:45:02 - 00:41:45:18
David Hollenbach
With.
00:41:46:11 - 00:41:55:08
David Hollenbach
With the ACE study, ACE is an acronym. It stands for Adverse Childhood Experiences.
00:41:56:02 - 00:41:58:03
David Hollenbach
And it is.
00:41:59:00 - 00:42:02:10
David Hollenbach
There's some really, really interesting statistics.
00:42:06:03 - 00:42:06:15
David Hollenbach
And.
00:42:06:15 - 00:42:17:09
David Hollenbach
Everybody can can do this as as I'm talking about. So it's a scale of 0 to 10 right? And you give yourself one point.
00:42:17:10 - 00:42:19:23
David Hollenbach
If you if any of.
00:42:19:23 - 00:42:53:16
David Hollenbach
These have happened to you during your childhood, was there any emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional neglect, physical neglect that you witnessed, your mother being battered? Was there a parental separation or of divorce? Was there mental illness in the household? Was there substance abuse in the household? Was there an incarcerated household member? So each one of those.
00:42:54:24 - 00:42:58:07
David Hollenbach
Gives you a point. And the more.
00:42:58:19 - 00:43:01:20
David Hollenbach
Points you have, the more likely.
00:43:02:04 - 00:43:07:18
David Hollenbach
You are to abuse.
00:43:08:03 - 00:43:08:16
David Hollenbach
Drugs or.
00:43:08:16 - 00:43:09:10
David Hollenbach
Alcohol.
00:43:10:20 - 00:43:14:01
David Hollenbach
The the more likely you are to.
00:43:15:00 - 00:43:16:09
David Hollenbach
Have mental.
00:43:16:10 - 00:43:25:14
David Hollenbach
Illness, physical illnesses, heart disease.
00:43:25:14 - 00:43:26:03
David Hollenbach
I mean.
00:43:27:06 - 00:43:36:17
David Hollenbach
Obesity is another one that and that's actually how the study even came about was this guy was researching obesity and children.
00:43:36:21 - 00:43:37:13
David Hollenbach
And.
00:43:37:14 - 00:43:40:09
David Hollenbach
Started putting together this correlation.
00:43:41:04 - 00:43:41:16
David Hollenbach
Between.
00:43:41:16 - 00:43:44:05
David Hollenbach
Adverse childhood experiences and obesity.
00:43:44:05 - 00:43:49:14
David Hollenbach
And interesting. And so what.
00:43:49:14 - 00:43:50:05
David Hollenbach
I.
00:43:50:07 - 00:43:50:15
David Hollenbach
Have.
00:43:50:15 - 00:43:52:02
David Hollenbach
Found and what.
00:43:52:20 - 00:43:53:01
David Hollenbach
The.
00:43:53:01 - 00:43:54:15
David Hollenbach
Statistics says that.
00:43:55:24 - 00:43:57:03
David Hollenbach
It you know.
00:43:58:14 - 00:44:05:21
David Hollenbach
Men and women both you know, adults today are like most likely.
00:44:08:02 - 00:44:17:24
David Hollenbach
Have a score of three or four. Wow. And a score.
00:44:17:24 - 00:44:18:24
David Hollenbach
Of four.
00:44:18:24 - 00:44:19:23
David Hollenbach
Or more.
00:44:20:17 - 00:44:27:06
David Hollenbach
Your your chances of experiencing some kind of life threatening illness.
00:44:27:20 - 00:44:29:02
David Hollenbach
Or, you know.
00:44:29:02 - 00:44:32:07
David Hollenbach
Depression, suicidality, that sort of.
00:44:32:07 - 00:44:32:16
David Hollenbach
Thing.
00:44:34:14 - 00:44:41:10
David Hollenbach
Increases exponentially. And by the age of 40.
00:44:41:10 - 00:44:42:21
David Hollenbach
You know, you'll.
00:44:42:21 - 00:44:44:13
David Hollenbach
Either be dead or.
00:44:44:13 - 00:44:46:02
David Hollenbach
In prison, essentially.
00:44:47:16 - 00:45:11:01
David Hollenbach
And like, my score is like really frickin high. And I have beat the odds. My younger brother, however, he died from an overdose in 2010. My my mother died a few years after him.
00:45:11:01 - 00:45:12:00
David Hollenbach
You know, And my.
00:45:13:09 - 00:45:16:11
David Hollenbach
Younger brother still, you know, the youngest of us.
00:45:17:22 - 00:45:20:23
David Hollenbach
He came close when.
00:45:20:23 - 00:45:22:08
David Hollenbach
He was 16.
00:45:22:08 - 00:45:25:03
David Hollenbach
Actually. And so it's.
00:45:26:22 - 00:45:30:24
David Hollenbach
There's a lot of us and fire and law enforcement.
00:45:30:24 - 00:45:33:12
David Hollenbach
That will never, ever openly.
00:45:33:12 - 00:45:39:08
David Hollenbach
Talk about those experiences, because for some reason, we.
00:45:39:13 - 00:45:42:04
David Hollenbach
Are ashamed that we were.
00:45:42:04 - 00:45:47:06
David Hollenbach
In that environment. But it also makes us really good at our jobs.
00:45:48:02 - 00:45:50:01
Wayne Mulder
Yes, I would agree with that.
00:45:50:24 - 00:45:59:04
David Hollenbach
And and I believe that you can go one of two ways. And the way that I went was I wanted to help people.
00:46:00:06 - 00:46:01:15
David Hollenbach
You know, and.
00:46:01:15 - 00:46:05:01
David Hollenbach
And I wanted to be able to be that person.
00:46:05:18 - 00:46:14:04
David Hollenbach
That somebody could depend upon. And and, you know, I.
00:46:14:17 - 00:46:27:02
David Hollenbach
Do believe that I was very, very good at my job and I helped a lot of people. But having the ACE score that I do have, it also made.
00:46:27:02 - 00:46:27:13
David Hollenbach
Me.
00:46:28:07 - 00:46:29:12
David Hollenbach
Pretty susceptible.
00:46:30:19 - 00:46:31:08
David Hollenbach
To.
00:46:32:13 - 00:46:36:01
David Hollenbach
PTSD. You know, the symptoms of PTSD, I mean, kind.
00:46:36:01 - 00:46:36:06
David Hollenbach
Of.
00:46:37:07 - 00:46:49:15
David Hollenbach
Set you up right? When you go into a field where you're experiencing the trauma of others over and over and over again, it you know, you're you're setting yourself up.
00:46:49:15 - 00:46:50:03
David Hollenbach
To.
00:46:51:00 - 00:46:52:11
David Hollenbach
Struggle with PTSD.
00:46:53:23 - 00:46:54:14
David Hollenbach
Absolutely.
00:46:55:08 - 00:47:04:12
David Hollenbach
So that's one of the things that I would have told my younger self is that I had some demons that I needed to deal with and I needed to deal with them now.
00:47:05:19 - 00:47:25:18
Wayne Mulder
Yeah, that's a good way to put it, don't you think? Just real quick on something you said there, don't you think having that strong why for helping other people is in and of itself kind of healing? I think at least me personally, like having this podcast, having the, you know, writing and so forth. I find in and of itself to be very therapeutic.
00:47:26:07 - 00:47:27:03
Wayne Mulder
Would you agree with that?
00:47:27:08 - 00:47:33:15
David Hollenbach
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And and that is when we're real clear on our why.
00:47:34:20 - 00:47:36:18
David Hollenbach
You know.
00:47:36:18 - 00:48:04:08
David Hollenbach
Because I think in my experience it's I don't know that I was real clear on why I was a firefighter. It wasn't until I much older I was so when I when I left the fire service, I had this identity crisis. You know, I spent 23 years in the fire service. That was my identity. I mean, I was pretty hard up with it.
00:48:05:03 - 00:48:10:02
David Hollenbach
Like, I, I would take vacation so I could go to.
00:48:10:03 - 00:48:10:23
David Hollenbach
Training.
00:48:12:04 - 00:48:16:19
David Hollenbach
Like, you know, because, you know, Department of Homeland Security, the of all that.
00:48:17:12 - 00:48:20:18
David Hollenbach
You know.
00:48:20:18 - 00:48:27:04
David Hollenbach
What is it, emergency response to terrorist bombings like those, you know, those kind of courses.
00:48:27:10 - 00:48:27:16
David Hollenbach
Yeah.
00:48:27:18 - 00:48:32:03
David Hollenbach
And so, you know, go out west, make a make.
00:48:32:24 - 00:48:33:09
David Hollenbach
You know.
00:48:33:24 - 00:48:37:23
David Hollenbach
Little vacation out of it and I get to do a bunch of cool shit.
00:48:38:04 - 00:48:39:23
David Hollenbach
But I was I would take.
00:48:40:01 - 00:49:01:21
David Hollenbach
Frickin vacation to go take these classes. And I didn't see a problem with that, you know, like, I, I took time away from my family. And that's another thing where I think we bury ourselves and work and neglect the things that are really.
00:49:02:00 - 00:49:04:03
David Hollenbach
The most important. And.
00:49:04:10 - 00:49:14:10
David Hollenbach
And it wasn't until I left the fire service that I, I, I felt like I had lost my identity and I really needed to dig deep and figure out.
00:49:15:15 - 00:49:16:02
David Hollenbach
What.
00:49:16:08 - 00:49:27:22
David Hollenbach
My purpose was. And and and who I was. Really. The fire service was just a way for me to express my values.
00:49:28:07 - 00:49:29:08
David Hollenbach
And what was important.
00:49:30:11 - 00:49:39:23
David Hollenbach
And it gave me the ability to take care of my family, which is what I ultimately wanted to do. But I lost sight of that at times.
00:49:40:03 - 00:49:43:19
David Hollenbach
And and I think that.
00:49:43:19 - 00:49:46:04
David Hollenbach
Is very common in our line of.
00:49:46:04 - 00:49:46:21
David Hollenbach
Work, you know.
00:49:47:05 - 00:50:05:11
Wayne Mulder
Very much so. In fact, even what you just said there with the vacation, I know myself early on and I know a lot of officers who will use vacation to like work off duties, teach at the college, you know, these other income producing opportunities, because in their mind, it's double dipping. But you're not taking that time to reset, decompress.
00:50:05:11 - 00:50:29:04
Wayne Mulder
You know, the things that we know now looking back that you've got to do. Yeah. Let's quickly segue into your book. You're the author of Fireproof Your Grand Strategy for Transforming Failure into Fuel for the Future is a little bit of a mouthful there, but I love the title and the concept. Walk us a little bit into that, because I think the book kind of or at least part of the book deals with some of the tragedy that you just talked about.
00:50:29:04 - 00:50:29:19
Wayne Mulder
Is that correct?
00:50:30:05 - 00:50:31:02
David Hollenbach
Yes. Yeah.
00:50:32:07 - 00:51:04:14
David Hollenbach
The book started off as a leadership book. I started writing it shortly after the death of my brother in 2010. And it it really evolved through the years because, you know, you know as well as I do, as you develop as a leader, your views on leadership and how you manage certain things. They change. They they are more refined.
00:51:05:01 - 00:51:18:18
David Hollenbach
And and so I just kept on editing this leadership book. And when I left the fire service, I and I went through this identity crisis and I realized that there's so much.
00:51:18:18 - 00:51:20:19
David Hollenbach
More that.
00:51:21:08 - 00:51:23:05
David Hollenbach
Should be addressed. And I and I.
00:51:23:17 - 00:51:24:01
David Hollenbach
Didn't.
00:51:24:01 - 00:51:28:03
David Hollenbach
Want it to be just another leadership book. I wanted there to.
00:51:28:03 - 00:51:33:03
David Hollenbach
Be, you know, an authentic.
00:51:33:03 - 00:51:34:02
David Hollenbach
Accounting.
00:51:34:03 - 00:51:34:15
David Hollenbach
Of.
00:51:34:21 - 00:51:37:14
David Hollenbach
The really big mistakes that I've made in my life.
00:51:37:14 - 00:51:38:17
David Hollenbach
And how.
00:51:38:17 - 00:51:39:14
David Hollenbach
I overcame.
00:51:39:14 - 00:51:43:17
David Hollenbach
Them and just maybe give.
00:51:46:15 - 00:51:56:07
David Hollenbach
Some hope to those out there that feel like they have destroyed their life through whatever stupid decisions they have made. Because.
00:51:56:17 - 00:51:57:10
David Hollenbach
You know.
00:51:58:05 - 00:52:19:01
David Hollenbach
We all make stupid decisions. I think we what we miss, the opportunity that we missed is that opportunity to give ourselves some grace and identify things that we've we've gotten right and done really, really well and the lives that we've impacted.
00:52:19:01 - 00:52:19:11
David Hollenbach
In.
00:52:19:11 - 00:52:20:22
David Hollenbach
Some amazing ways.
00:52:20:22 - 00:52:21:15
David Hollenbach
We we.
00:52:21:15 - 00:52:25:12
David Hollenbach
Tend to minimize that stuff and like.
00:52:26:13 - 00:52:27:15
David Hollenbach
Over.
00:52:28:11 - 00:52:46:17
David Hollenbach
Maximize the mistakes that we make. Yeah. And, and yeah, you know, we might make some stupid decisions, but it's up to us that we can allow those mistakes to define us or we can.
00:52:46:17 - 00:52:47:10
David Hollenbach
Allow.
00:52:48:07 - 00:52:58:09
David Hollenbach
Those to be opportunities to refine us. You know, we can become better for those. And that's really what I talk about in the book.
00:52:58:09 - 00:52:58:19
David Hollenbach
And.
00:52:59:20 - 00:53:03:24
David Hollenbach
And I give some tools to help people really.
00:53:05:07 - 00:53:07:11
David Hollenbach
Dig deep and figure.
00:53:07:11 - 00:53:14:17
David Hollenbach
Out what their big why is early on and and set a path to where they want to be.
00:53:15:06 - 00:53:20:19
David Hollenbach
When when they're done with all the.
00:53:20:19 - 00:53:22:10
David Hollenbach
You know, running and gunning.
00:53:22:10 - 00:53:24:02
David Hollenbach
And and you.
00:53:24:02 - 00:53:37:01
David Hollenbach
Know, all the cool shit that we get in to the fire service and law enforcement you know all that that really cool stuff. When we're done doing all that, where do we want to be?
00:53:37:01 - 00:53:37:17
David Hollenbach
I mean.
00:53:38:05 - 00:53:49:23
David Hollenbach
And because 20 years after we retire, is there really going to be anybody other than like a couple of guys that we still stay in contact with that remember the cool shit that we did?
00:53:49:23 - 00:53:50:07
David Hollenbach
Yeah.
00:53:50:24 - 00:54:18:03
Wayne Mulder
Very unlikely. That's true. I've seen it even as the old, you know, old timers, if you would, as they retire and so forth. Yeah. You know, every once in a while you may tell a story or, you know, their name comes up, but over the years have people don't get more than half. And I mean, we're such a young agency now by three quarters of the people have no idea who that name even was, you know, and time marches on us as they say something.
00:54:18:03 - 00:54:31:12
Wayne Mulder
I want to quickly bring up here under the book, because it's about leadership. And I know we're getting really short on time, but you've said it three times so far in this podcast, so I just wanna get your thoughts on it. How important is humility when we talk about leaders.
00:54:31:12 - 00:54:33:22
David Hollenbach
Well.
00:54:33:22 - 00:54:39:05
Wayne Mulder
Because you've used the word three times describing your dad, you used it three times in this conversation. So I really.
00:54:40:05 - 00:54:42:11
David Hollenbach
Well, that is one of.
00:54:42:11 - 00:54:43:02
David Hollenbach
Those.
00:54:43:16 - 00:54:45:12
David Hollenbach
Hard lessons learned for me.
00:54:45:19 - 00:54:46:18
David Hollenbach
Because.
00:54:46:24 - 00:54:47:09
David Hollenbach
I.
00:54:49:12 - 00:54:49:18
David Hollenbach
Well.
00:54:50:02 - 00:55:01:10
David Hollenbach
I've said it a couple of times, and I do believe that I did my job really well. I've received a lot of accolades.
00:55:01:10 - 00:55:02:16
David Hollenbach
You know, of.
00:55:02:16 - 00:55:05:13
David Hollenbach
Received awards for actions. I talk on.
00:55:05:13 - 00:55:08:18
David Hollenbach
Calls and.
00:55:08:18 - 00:55:10:12
David Hollenbach
You know, I've been recognized quite a bit.
00:55:10:15 - 00:55:11:18
David Hollenbach
And, you know.
00:55:12:05 - 00:55:23:06
David Hollenbach
I've never done any of those things for recognition. But when you get recognized over and over again, that can go to your head.
00:55:23:10 - 00:55:27:11
David Hollenbach
And it did for me. And it.
00:55:28:05 - 00:55:35:09
David Hollenbach
Like really I started doing things for the wrong reason, you know, because I.
00:55:35:18 - 00:55:36:09
David Hollenbach
Wanted to.
00:55:36:09 - 00:55:37:16
David Hollenbach
Keep feeling that.
00:55:37:16 - 00:55:40:20
David Hollenbach
Good, you know, I.
00:55:40:20 - 00:55:49:24
David Hollenbach
Wanted to feel good about myself. You know, I'm like that. And it always happened when I was struggling with something, you know, where I started.
00:55:49:24 - 00:55:50:07
David Hollenbach
I would.
00:55:50:18 - 00:55:59:07
David Hollenbach
Really like maybe just not for good because it was still there, but ignore the fact that I was.
00:56:00:03 - 00:56:00:11
David Hollenbach
Doing.
00:56:00:11 - 00:56:01:13
David Hollenbach
Things for the wrong reason.
00:56:01:13 - 00:56:02:13
David Hollenbach
That the the.
00:56:03:01 - 00:56:11:24
David Hollenbach
Reason why I've done so well was because I was putting other first, you know, I.
00:56:11:24 - 00:56:13:05
David Hollenbach
Wanted to help.
00:56:13:05 - 00:56:23:24
David Hollenbach
Other people, whether it was fellow firefighters, you know, helping them become better, you know, developing the team.
00:56:23:24 - 00:56:24:12
David Hollenbach
Put in.
00:56:24:19 - 00:56:55:02
David Hollenbach
Put in my own body at risk to help somebody else. But when you start doing things for it because you want to feel good and feel recognized, you know, that's that's your ego getting in the way. And when you forget about why you're doing what you're doing, the true reason is to help others. When you lose sight of that.
00:56:55:16 - 00:56:58:14
David Hollenbach
And it becomes about you, the.
00:56:58:14 - 00:57:15:02
David Hollenbach
Fall is coming and I and I use this phrase and I have shirts that I put it on, you know, it's I write it under my signature. When I when I do book signings, it's be humble or be humble.
00:57:15:24 - 00:57:16:17
David Hollenbach
And.
00:57:17:22 - 00:57:26:07
David Hollenbach
I I've struggled to remember that throughout my career. And every time I forgot it, it was it was sure to.
00:57:26:07 - 00:57:28:00
David Hollenbach
Come, you know, And.
00:57:29:03 - 00:57:41:01
David Hollenbach
I've fallen on my face quite a few times. And it was when I forgot that it's not about me. It's it's about the people that I'm leading.
00:57:41:19 - 00:57:42:17
David Hollenbach
And and.
00:57:43:11 - 00:57:44:19
David Hollenbach
I like to say serving.
00:57:47:04 - 00:57:47:10
David Hollenbach
It.
00:57:48:01 - 00:58:03:13
David Hollenbach
You know, because when we're in a leadership position, I feel like the only way that we can really gauge our success as a leader is to look at the success of the people that are following us. How successful are.
00:58:03:13 - 00:58:07:06
David Hollenbach
They? You know, how how.
00:58:07:06 - 00:58:10:02
David Hollenbach
Much better are they for having followed us.
00:58:10:16 - 00:58:16:14
David Hollenbach
And, you know, if they're only there.
00:58:16:14 - 00:58:29:05
David Hollenbach
Because they got assigned to you and the minute that they can go to a different team, they do. You got to start looking at who you are as a leader.
00:58:30:23 - 00:58:33:22
David Hollenbach
And maybe put your ego.
00:58:33:22 - 00:58:50:14
David Hollenbach
In check because it's it's not about us. And until we're adding value to those that we care about and we really should care about the people that leading.
00:58:50:14 - 00:58:50:22
David Hollenbach
Yeah.
00:58:51:09 - 00:58:53:22
David Hollenbach
So I would say humility is vital.
00:58:54:13 - 00:59:13:08
Wayne Mulder
Yeah. No, that's great. I love that. And for years before even law enforcement, I always had the Zig Ziglar quote, written up on my wall and stuff where you can have everything in life you want if you just help enough other people get what they want. And it's the same thing. It's really that focus as others. Well, we've definitely run down on time here to last things.
00:59:13:08 - 00:59:24:17
Wayne Mulder
I want everyone check out your podcast from Embers to Excellence, Great podcast, by the way. And you have people from all walks of life on there, so I want everyone to check that out. What is next for you and your mission?
00:59:26:03 - 00:59:41:22
David Hollenbach
Well, I do. I do coaching. One of the things that I really like to do is work with people that, you know, they want to be better leaders and it doesn't have to be fire or law enforcement.
00:59:42:20 - 00:59:43:22
David Hollenbach
I've been.
00:59:43:22 - 00:59:48:13
David Hollenbach
Talking to some people in tech lately because apparently there's.
00:59:48:16 - 00:59:51:18
David Hollenbach
A you.
00:59:51:18 - 00:59:55:01
David Hollenbach
Know, it's just like in the fire and law enforcement industry.
00:59:55:01 - 00:59:55:14
David Hollenbach
You know.
00:59:56:04 - 01:00:04:20
David Hollenbach
There's people that get promoted. They might be really, really good tactics. And, you know, computer engineers really good at.
01:00:04:20 - 01:00:07:08
David Hollenbach
Engineering and.
01:00:07:08 - 01:00:15:14
David Hollenbach
That's why they get promoted. And now they're leading a team, but they suck. There are people skills are horrendous.
01:00:15:24 - 01:00:17:14
David Hollenbach
And they don't want to.
01:00:17:17 - 01:00:23:22
David Hollenbach
Either. They don't want to be an asshole. So they do. Everybody's work for them and get burned out and they don't last.
01:00:24:04 - 01:00:24:10
Wayne Mulder
Yeah.
01:00:25:07 - 01:00:35:02
David Hollenbach
Or they become a tyrant and a micromanager and nobody wants to work for anybody like that. So the team implodes.
01:00:36:05 - 01:00:36:15
David Hollenbach
And.
01:00:37:01 - 01:01:01:14
David Hollenbach
It's really easy to fix that. It's it's all about mindset. So I work with people that that are either in a leadership position or they're they're looking at that possibility and want to make sure they're ready for it. Because I don't know about you, but when I when I first got promoted to an officer position, I was like, Oh shit, I don't know if I'm ready for this.
01:01:01:18 - 01:01:02:01
David Hollenbach
You know.
01:01:03:07 - 01:01:12:07
Wayne Mulder
Any time I've been in a leadership position, that thought comes to mind. So yeah, before any promotional process, it's like, am I really ready for this? Am I the person for this?
01:01:13:01 - 01:01:13:13
David Hollenbach
So.
01:01:13:23 - 01:01:18:09
David Hollenbach
Yeah, you know, so I do coaching, you know, one on one coaching team, team.
01:01:18:09 - 01:01:20:10
David Hollenbach
Building and.
01:01:20:13 - 01:01:29:07
David Hollenbach
I do speaking engagements and, and so yeah, I just roll on with that and that's what's on the horizon for me.
01:01:29:22 - 01:01:33:15
Wayne Mulder
Well I appreciate this has been a great conversation. What's the best way for people to connect with you.
01:01:35:01 - 01:01:48:23
David Hollenbach
Yeah if you just go to my website Holland Bok Leadership Dot all of my social media links are on there. You can email me from the website as well.
01:01:48:23 - 01:01:49:06
David Hollenbach
Yeah.
01:01:49:17 - 01:02:01:24
David Hollenbach
I'm the one that answers all my social media messages, all my emails, so it might take me a couple of days to respond, but I will be the one responding.
01:02:01:24 - 01:02:03:11
David Hollenbach
And yeah.
01:02:03:20 - 01:02:06:03
David Hollenbach
I'd love to hear from everybody.
01:02:06:16 - 01:02:22:09
Wayne Mulder
Sounds good. I'll have all that linked up, including to the A study that's on your website here. Very fascinating. And I think it's an important part of what people need to do on self-reflection. So, Dave, thank you. We could go deeper into a lot of topics today. I think we just kind of scratched the surface, but I really appreciate your time.
01:02:23:02 - 01:02:33:12
David Hollenbach
Yeah. And, you know, I don't know that we've got anything on the calendar yet, but your listeners might want to tune in when you come on my show.
01:02:33:21 - 01:02:38:06
Wayne Mulder
Well, I hope we can do that. And it would be a privilege. So thank you very much.
01:02:38:17 - 01:02:44:08
David Hollenbach
Sir.
01:02:44:08 - 01:03:08:00
Wayne Mulder
So how was that? I hope you enjoyed that conversation. I'm sorry, the intro and outro seem a little bit rushed, but the meat of the conversation I think will do a lot of good for a lot of people and I hope you really enjoyed it. So like I said at the beginning, things should be getting a little bit closer to getting back to normal here in the next couple of weeks, and by the end of January we will be right on track with some of the changes that we've been working hard since last fall to bring to you.
01:03:08:07 - 01:03:29:21
Wayne Mulder
And I think that's all I've got for you this week. Morning Roll Call should be this coming Monday. But for sure, the interview room will be out the following Thursday. And in the meantime, I'll see you out there on the blue line.