PODCAST: What EVERY Cop MUST know about Use of Force and Officer Involved Shootings with Douglas Parker | 180
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Meet this Weeks Guest: Douglas Parker
Thin Blue Defend gives officers an easy, simple, and thorough way to document their perception when use of force is required. The app guides the officer through questions about the incident with dropdowns, audio recording, and text options.
The data is all stored in a fully encrypted cloud. Upon downloading the app you are prompted to add your attorney’s information which makes it an attorney client work product. After documenting the incident in the app- a officer can send the report directly to his attorney.
Doug is retired Law Enforcement with over 40 years of investigating use of force cases. He saw the need for this app to assist officers is documenting crucial details for their defense.
Show Notes from This Episode
EPISODE OVERVIEW:
In this episode of the On The Blue Line Podcast, host Wayne Mulder and guest, Douglas Parker discuss Use of Force incidents and Officer involved shootings based on his experience with the Georgia Bureau of Investigations.
PODCAST OVERVIEW:
The On The Blue Line Podcast and Community has the mission of Empowering Cops in their personal lives and educating the public on the realities of law enforcement. This law enforcement podcast is focused on providing concepts, ideas, and actionable steps that can make a difference in your life. The morning roll call is a weekly monologue show with Wayne Mulder. The Interview Room podcast is an interview style format hosted by Wayne Mulder.
Go Deeper:
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___________________
Topics we discuss:
· Use of Force (UOF)
· Officer Involved Shootings (OIS)
· Truett Cathy and Chick-fil-A
· Graham v. Connor
· Search and Seizure
· Objective Reasonableness
· Totality of the Circumstances
· Defense Attorney
· District Attorney
· Grand Jury
· Indictment
· Justified Use of Force
Doug Answers:
1. How does having more information when documenting a Use of Force help bring the Officer Peace of Mind?
2. What has changed in Law Enforcement Use of Force considerations post-Graham v. Connor?
3. What is the Main Goal for the Thin Blue Defend App?
4. What are some of the concerns and conversely some the best accolades for the Applications to date?
5. Is the Application for the Officer or for the Agency?
CONNECT with Doug:
· WEBSITE: https://thinbluedefend.com/
· WEBSITE: https://seveneighttech.com/
· INSTAGRAM: @ThinBlueDefend
· FACEBOOK: @ThinBlueDefend
· LINKEDIN: @Thin-Blue-Defend
RESOURCES mentioned:
· BOOK: A Killher Plan: Behind The Crime Scene Tape
· ARTICLE: Officer.com article about Thin Blue Defend
AFTER the episode:
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• VISIT OUR Website: https://www.ontheblueline.com/
• EMAIL me your feedback: Feedback@OnTheBlueLine.com
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We strive to create a world where law enforcement life expectancies are equal with the general population.
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TRANSCRIPTION OF EPISODE. Please note this is a new service we are offering and there will be spelling, grammar and accuracy issues. This transcription is offered as a convenience to our listeners, but at this time it is not guaranteed to be accurate.
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;06;06
Wayne Mulder
Welcome to the On the Blue Line podcast. I'm your host, Wayne Mulder, and it's exciting to be back with you again this week.
00;00;06;07 - 00;00;29;06
Wayne Mulder
Here we are. It's already September. The weather starting to change. It's getting well. It's Florida, so it hasn't changed that much. Fair but welcome and thank you so much for joining us this week. It's all about a guest to created an application that deals with officer involved shootings, use of force incidents. And it's really about giving officers peace of mind.
00;00;29;08 - 00;00;32;21
Wayne Mulder
Let's get to it. The On the Blue Line podcast starts now.
00;01;04;05 - 00;01;28;04
Wayne Mulder
So welcome back. This is our second to last of the evergreen episodes of just a quick version for those of you who are just finding us, just finding the podcast essentially. The podcast started in 2019. However, in 2023, I found out I was going to have to have open heart surgery early in the year, and that came to fruition, unfortunately, and it put me out of commission for a while.
00;01;28;04 - 00;01;44;19
Wayne Mulder
So there was about an 11 month period where I was out of pocket, due to just recovering from that heart surgery and getting back to my normal job, which is law enforcement, and then coming back to this podcast. So there was a series of episodes that had already been recorded that I wanted to make sure went out.
00;01;44;19 - 00;02;05;00
Wayne Mulder
I think it's imperative that any time a guest is willing to give us a little bit of their time, that their story gets put out to the masses and that you get to enjoy it. And then also, I want to be straight with you guys. So that's why I honestly, these are mostly evergreen episodes. If I didn't tell you that they were recorded a very long time ago, you probably would have no idea.
00;02;05;02 - 00;02;21;19
Wayne Mulder
However, I think it's important that you also know. So this is second to last of those episodes and, once this one this week, and then in two weeks when that one comes out, then we will be up to date in the ones that are being recorded now will be the ones that are coming out on a weekly basis.
00;02;21;22 - 00;02;41;08
Wayne Mulder
That being said, two things I want to draw your attention to if you haven't, considered our Patreon page, I encourage you go to on the Blue line.com, scroll down to the third section and that will tell you the length. I will take you over to the Patreon page. Why join? Well, that's a fair question. And the why is so there's new content that I'm putting in there every week.
00;02;41;10 - 00;03;03;24
Wayne Mulder
I go a little bit deeper. This week I did a whole, about a ten minute thing on what really changed my life as far as from a standpoint, vision, goal setting and mindset. So I just different topics are in there. And then there's also some behind the scenes stuff as well. So if you want to go deeper, if you're enjoying the content then please check that out.
00;03;03;24 - 00;03;25;27
Wayne Mulder
There's a couple options. And the third option actually includes our monthly meeting, that you and I will be in, every month. So I hope you'll check it out. I hope that's something you enjoy. The other thing is, if you're enjoying this content, if this is, if you have any feedback, anything you want to do, just please go to our Instagram page at, the Blue Line podcast at On the Blue Line podcast.
00;03;26;00 - 00;03;42;12
Wayne Mulder
And be sure to like the page and then send me a DM. And I would love to get your feedback. I will definitely interact with you there and I would love to get to know you as well. So and then as always, anything else you want to know about on the blue line.com. So this week's guest is Douglas Parker.
00;03;42;14 - 00;04;10;09
Wayne Mulder
Doug has extensive history like over 40 years of law enforcement. Expensive experience. Easy for me to say. About 40 years of law enforcement experience. And primarily at the Georgia Bureau of Investigations. We go through all that, this this podcast is a little bit slower paced. So I encourage you to just kind of, hang in there because we're going to get into the meat of why proper documentation during use force incidents and officer involved shootings is so important.
00;04;10;09 - 00;04;25;23
Wayne Mulder
And some of the things that can go horribly wrong and the impact that it has on law enforcement officers, really for their entire life. So if you're new to the career, if you've been in the career a long time, but, you're just not really up to speed on what's out there and some of these new applications that are coming on the market.
00;04;25;23 - 00;04;43;23
Wayne Mulder
Please, please, please check this out. You can still go to the Thin Blue defend, which is what we are talking about in here. It's thin blue defend.com. However, if you scroll down to the show notes, there's actually another website as well that takes you to what is a newer iteration of the app called Second Defense. So be sure to check all that out.
00;04;43;26 - 00;04;57;22
Wayne Mulder
Doug and his team have been great. They're really great people. I feel horrible it's taken so long to get this out to you. But if you would do me a favor and just, at some point during this episode or at the end of the episode, just scroll down into the show notes and check out what he's doing over there.
00;04;57;22 - 00;05;07;06
Wayne Mulder
I think it may very much benefit your agency or benefit you personally. So, without taking any more time, here's this week's guest, Doug Parker.
00;05;07;16 - 00;05;09;22
Wayne Mulder
Well, Doug, welcome to the show.
00;05;09;24 - 00;05;11;27
Doug Parker
Thank you for having me on one. I really appreciate this.
00;05;12;02 - 00;05;23;01
Wayne Mulder
Well, I appreciate you coming on. I'm so glad you guys reached out to me and that I've gotten to get to know you a little bit and hear your story and what you're doing for law enforcement. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation.
00;05;23;03 - 00;05;24;16
Doug Parker
Same here. Thank you sir.
00;05;24;18 - 00;05;37;18
Wayne Mulder
Well thank you. Well let's begin. As I always do I like to start with some get to know your questions. And I start with the easy softball question right up front. Is it coffee or tea?
00;05;37;20 - 00;05;40;23
Doug Parker
Cuban coffee in the morning. And definitely tea.
00;05;40;26 - 00;05;45;07
Wayne Mulder
Okay. What's it say? Being from Georgia, I was wondering where the answer is going to be.
00;05;45;10 - 00;05;47;13
Doug Parker
All right.
00;05;47;15 - 00;06;01;00
Wayne Mulder
Well. Very good. Cuban coffee, you say? Any particular, like what got you into specifically? Cuban coffee, especially Georgia. Because I'm being from Florida. Of course I'm thinking Tampa. I'm thinking Ybor City.
00;06;01;03 - 00;06;16;03
Doug Parker
Have a friend in Miami, spend some time down there and, great little, gas station that, has, great pastries and the coffee in there. So visit that every morning when I'm down there.
00;06;16;05 - 00;06;24;29
Wayne Mulder
It's good stuff. So, do you have a best or worst travel story?
00;06;25;01 - 00;06;42;03
Doug Parker
No, sir, I don't believe so. If traveling all the time. Of course. And, of course, with the Bureau, it seems like you're on the road all the time. Driving, you know, a hundred miles an hour with my left knee, burger in the left hand and the police radio in the right hand. So.
00;06;42;05 - 00;06;45;08
Wayne Mulder
Yes, I think we all can relate to that story for sure.
00;06;45;08 - 00;06;46;08
Doug Parker
Yes, sir.
00;06;46;10 - 00;07;00;22
Wayne Mulder
Do you have a favorite or most meaningful modern nonfiction book? And I know I put a lot of qualifiers on there, but essentially a lot of people say, like the Bible and so forth. So that's why I said modern. Is there a book that is really meaningful to you and has meant a lot to you?
00;07;00;25 - 00;07;23;29
Doug Parker
Well, it always changes. You know, ever since retiring and, and getting into the consulting work with the use of force, several books, different experts in the field and Alexis Agarwal, Blake Shields, deadly force encounters. And then, Lance LaRusso was written a book, on use of force. So been more into those kind of books, like.
00;07;24;02 - 00;07;38;23
Wayne Mulder
Okay, well, which makes perfect sense with what we're going to talk about today. So we will segue into that here shortly. What is that place that brings you the most peace you like, your favorite spot, maybe a vacation spot or whatever, where you can just stop, breathe and enjoy life.
00;07;38;25 - 00;07;54;00
Doug Parker
I have a captain's license, so I love the Intercoastal Waterway and, into the medias. So anything around water have a place on the like? So, anything around water is is really just, great place to be.
00;07;54;02 - 00;08;13;04
Wayne Mulder
It's awesome. It always seems like it's either going to be water or mountains with that question, what are the two for most people, right. So let's go ahead from there. I've already, prefaced a little bit that you're from the Georgia area, but could you tell us a little bit about your origin story and maybe going into law enforcement and, a little bit about who who is Doug?
00;08;13;06 - 00;08;39;05
Doug Parker
Sure. Grew up in a law enforcement family, following up being, chief of police with Clayton County Police Department below Atlanta. And, we lived in a rural area. Well, had a farm because most police don't make enough money. So that was his job. We were cattle, during the evenings, the weekends, and, but he took me on a liquor store right when I was 14 years old, and, we were shot at.
00;08;39;08 - 00;08;55;10
Doug Parker
And so just. It's in your blood at that point, you know, so exciting. Mom was pretty upset. Of course, has been taking, you know, your son out and getting shot at.
00;08;55;12 - 00;08;57;26
Wayne Mulder
But I can see mom being a little upset.
00;08;57;29 - 00;09;02;04
Doug Parker
But what a story. You know, Monday, the next day at school.
00;09;02;07 - 00;09;02;26
Wayne Mulder
Yes.
00;09;02;26 - 00;09;06;24
Doug Parker
Yeah. I tell everybody.
00;09;06;26 - 00;09;16;02
Wayne Mulder
That that is wonderful. So from there, were you always with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation or did you kind of go through the typical working?
00;09;16;05 - 00;09;36;19
Doug Parker
No. And that's why I was a little bit different. I went to graduate of the Georgia Southern, University in Statesboro. And, after that, I knew I wanted to get on with the bureau, but they had a freeze on hiring. So one of the guys that worked for my dad got the head security job at Georgia-Pacific when they moved their headquarters from Portland, Oregon to Atlanta.
00;09;36;21 - 00;09;53;24
Doug Parker
And so I started with him. Even before the building was completely built, we were going to policies and procedures and, you know, how how the building was going to be managed in the security field. So I did that for about a year and until finally the freeze was lifted. Then I got on with the Bureau.
00;09;53;27 - 00;10;23;10
Wayne Mulder
Okay. Very good. You know, I think it's interesting you mentioned there, growing up in your dad, working cattle and so forth on the side. And your parents in farming. I had some other guest on recently, and they were from farms in the Midwest. And I really do think, speaking to a lot of retired, law enforcement officers and people who are still in the business, but have been in it for enough time that they could retire, that that really does establish a work ethic that I think has kind of changed as society has changed.
00;10;23;10 - 00;10;29;25
Wayne Mulder
But it is interesting. You know what that, you know, growing up around the farm and the work ethic that that really instills in people.
00;10;29;27 - 00;10;43;22
Doug Parker
Yeah. And, we weren't up until midnight on Saturday night and we'd stop, because that was Sunday. And, we didn't work on Sunday unless the cows got out or had to feed them. But, early on, I thought, man, this is pretty good. I only get a day of rest.
00;10;43;25 - 00;11;04;16
Wayne Mulder
Yes. Well, and that's, as it should be. So that's awesome. At your time at Georgia Bureau of Investigation, it looks like you've done a lot of very interesting things. I'm sure a lot of probably some major investigations, if you want to tell us a little bit about those. But also, you did some work with, like, the threat assessment at the 96 Olympics when they were held in Atlanta.
00;11;04;16 - 00;11;05;24
Wayne Mulder
Is that correct?
00;11;05;26 - 00;11;25;03
Doug Parker
Yes, sir. Of course, the bureau, we were the GBI, we were requested agency. So, you know, you as a private citizen couldn't call us to come out to, you know, investigating. They were to be requested by a chief sheriff, district attorney or work for the discretion of the governor. So, yeah, a lot of, a lot of different jobs, though, and those were mainly major cases.
00;11;25;05 - 00;11;49;02
Doug Parker
It was, Grant's, I would say a rural area, but again, Augusta, Georgia area and so had some pretty rural counties and so when there were murders or child molestation or bank robberies, wherever they normally call us, and, and, you know, then when the Olympics came along, got hit heavily involved in that because some of the property, some of the venues for the Olympics were, state property.
00;11;49;05 - 00;12;07;09
Doug Parker
So that's how GBI became involved. And then I was at the rural congressman, or we had several different venues within the, World Congress Center. And, yeah, I had to go there, there about a year and a half, even before I resigned, as they were building out to work on, you know, how how are we going to manage the security?
00;12;07;09 - 00;12;26;27
Doug Parker
Because we were having, officers come in from all from federal, state, local agencies, and we had to come as one and have, training for everybody and how we were going to utilize the resources to protect, you know, not only the, the patrons coming in, but also that leaders and dignitaries that would, would often come.
00;12;27;00 - 00;12;46;21
Wayne Mulder
Yeah. Has. So we're talking 96. I actually was through I won't mention that I was in high school, but I was through Atlanta in like the 94 and 95 time period. How has and this is just more of a curiosity question. And you can kind of take it for, you know, what's your thoughts on this. But I'd be curious how have things like that changed?
00;12;46;21 - 00;13;02;15
Wayne Mulder
Because obviously since then obviously we've had 911. We've had, you know, the world's changed, the security states change, the you know, the homeland security now exist. There's a there's a lot of things that didn't exist in those days. So what would you say if you were just looking back at kind of a synopsis of what was good, what was bad and what's different?
00;13;02;17 - 00;13;03;28
Wayne Mulder
What would be your thoughts on that?
00;13;04;00 - 00;13;30;15
Doug Parker
Well, it changed immediately the night of the bombing. I was on a day shift and I got phone call and it was brought back at work. And in fact, they brought in, everybody that was in training down in Brunswick at the Federal Training Center. Mainly bussed them all up to Atlanta. I mean, we closed, not closed down, but security was was definitely strengthened, you know, tenfold because of what happened at the Olympics.
00;13;30;15 - 00;13;53;26
Doug Parker
And it continued from there. I mean, we've seen, everything from airports to, any type of building, you know, security guard down at a courthouse, this past week, new courthouse that was built was completely and, you know, enclosed with, you know, fencing and, gate access, controlled access. So, you know, either way, there was a vehicle, vehicle coming in at workers there.
00;13;53;26 - 00;14;02;00
Doug Parker
So, yeah, totally mindset totally changed, especially after nine, 11. But, again that night, it happened with us at the Olympics.
00;14;02;03 - 00;14;19;04
Wayne Mulder
Well, yeah. And you're definitely seeing it move towards more soft targets now with even, like, what they're wanting to see with schools and even like this outcry of the tragedy that happened in Virginia last week. And you're just really starting to see kind of a move towards, and good and bad when it comes to a security state, which we won't get into.
00;14;19;04 - 00;14;26;28
Wayne Mulder
But, you know, there's definitely, you're seeing it now move into other things as society changes. Sadly.
00;14;27;00 - 00;14;30;10
Doug Parker
Yes. Definitely changing and a continue change.
00;14;30;13 - 00;14;42;27
Wayne Mulder
Yes. You had written a book called A Kill Her Plan behind the Crime scene tape. Was that a specific investigation, or can you tell us a little bit about this book? And it is the Amazon, by the way.
00;14;42;29 - 00;15;04;10
Doug Parker
Sure. It was. It was a k a murder case. It only worked a couple hundred been involved, either the case agent or assisting other agents in the office. So many homicide or death investigations. This one was a homicide. And and I realize that, you know, not every case is book worthy. And not all the ones that were this, this one kind of rose to the top.
00;15;04;12 - 00;15;34;17
Doug Parker
And as far as, you know, intrigued what happened and how it happened. You know, the lady that was killed, Christa Anderson, you know, and having to deal with her family. And that was, I guess, the turning point. You know, me as far as being a hardened, you know, been to many, many death scenes and seen all kind of, bodies and different types of, you know, either decay or, you know, freshly, death.
00;15;34;17 - 00;15;51;29
Doug Parker
It just had happened. So, you know, this was the first time that I guess I kind of let my guard down a little bit. And, you know, with Christie as mother, you know, it really affected me as far as getting to know her and what she was going through. Usually I didn't let it affect me at all.
00;15;52;01 - 00;16;13;19
Doug Parker
Yeah. But, yeah, interesting case. Actually had, one of the guys who would best even tried to hire somebody to kill me and the sheriff down there in the county. So. Yeah, pretty interesting case the way it came about and how long it took, to recover certain items and make the arrest.
00;16;13;21 - 00;16;21;15
Wayne Mulder
Okay. And does the book go all the way through a resolution, like does it is there does come in the end. So you kind of know what happened with the case and so forth.
00;16;21;18 - 00;16;40;07
Doug Parker
Yes, sir. And what I did also is, as I would talk about certain things in this case, I bring in other cases to prove a point of an investigative technique or why we do certain things, you know, and that's what it was with Christine's mother was she didn't understand. You know what? Why can't you tell me this? You know, what do you mean, a search warrant?
00;16;40;10 - 00;17;00;05
Doug Parker
You know, you're waiting on what? You know, the judge. Or why don't you just go in the house and why can't you do this and that? So it was a lot of explaining to a lot of folks don't understand, you know, how we operate. You know what? We have to go through the legal, well, that we have to go through to do the things in the proper way.
00;17;00;08 - 00;17;08;14
Wayne Mulder
Right? No, I, I that intrigues me. I will certainly, check it out. And then for the listeners, it's available on Amazon as well. There'll be a link in the show notes for them.
00;17;08;14 - 00;17;10;03
Doug Parker
But, thank you, sir.
00;17;10;05 - 00;17;34;02
Wayne Mulder
I want to bring up, we talked a little bit off line, and I've heard you talked before about passing up a chick fil A franchise, and I only bring that up because actually, the part that caught my interest was you mentioned, knowing Truett Cathy. And when I was young, before he passed, that was one of my goals of mentors who I wanted to someday meet because I was, when I grew up, I thought I was going to be a business guy.
00;17;34;03 - 00;17;51;10
Wayne Mulder
That's what I thought at 18, 19 years old. Instead, I put plants in the ground, green side up, and later became a cop, neither of which I think qualify. But, that was my dream. And there were guys like pre President Trump, but guys like, you know after the deal I loved his book. And then of course through it Cathy and his story and his amazing faith.
00;17;51;12 - 00;17;59;27
Wayne Mulder
So I just thought I'd bring it up because I'd be curious to hear a little bit about, true it. And maybe you can even tell the listeners you're, passing up a franchise story.
00;18;00;02 - 00;18;26;26
Doug Parker
Sure. He, he had a, 200 acres right around on another road, right around promise. And so my dad always helped him out with managing the cows. Also, and especially Sunday and Cathy. And so we were always over there. And so after I got out of college and married my wife, who is still with me, thank the Lord after 40 years, he said, hey, I have a barn out there.
00;18;26;28 - 00;18;46;15
Doug Parker
You can live in the barn as long as you want to buy your Georgia-Pacific and the barn was a little nicer than even a lot of people's houses and nice living quarters in it. So, yeah, we moved in over there. And so he was came out one morning and, I think it was off that day. So let's go ride motorcycles.
00;18;46;15 - 00;19;02;06
Doug Parker
And I said, well, Mr. Casey, don't you have to go to work? He said, well, I am the boss. I own the company. I do what I want to do and let's go ride motorcycles. So I said, yes, sir. Well, so we rode around for hour. So we came back and he said, I'll give you a Chick-Fil-A in an anywhere you'd like.
00;19;02;08 - 00;19;17;03
Doug Parker
If you want to work, you know, in the Chick-Fil-A business. And, and I said, well. Mr.. You. Wow, what an honor. First of all, I'll just be off because I know you don't offer just anybody. And I said, let me let me think about it and talk to my wife and pray about it. I came back 2 or 3 days later.
00;19;17;03 - 00;19;34;24
Doug Parker
I said, Miss Cathy, just as you know, your sons follow in your footsteps so much that I said. And I told him the story being shot at. You know, when I was 14, I said, you know, that's it. That's in your blood. That's the that's the career path that I want to pursue. Again, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
00;19;34;24 - 00;19;49;25
Doug Parker
So, I knew how much operators made, and the stores even back then, and I knew what the police made, again, like, I said, not a very good financial decision, but, you know, it's what's in your heart.
00;19;49;27 - 00;20;04;28
Wayne Mulder
Absolutely. And, it's great to hear that story. And because it isn't about the money, it really isn't. And we say that and, and and I get, like, Zig Ziglar used to say, you know, it's not about the money, but when you really need it, you need it kind of thing. And that that's true as well, you know.
00;20;05;00 - 00;20;18;18
Wayne Mulder
But there is, there's a lot of truth to this career being a calling. And I think sometimes so many people step away from the why of what brought them in here in the first place. And that's where we see a lot of the despondency and other issues over time.
00;20;18;20 - 00;20;25;08
Doug Parker
Yeah, maybe it wasn't. It wasn't. Oh, I want to help people. I'm I'm, you know, I was excited, I got shot, and I want some more of that.
00;20;25;11 - 00;20;27;00
Wayne Mulder
Drive fast, flashy lights.
00;20;27;03 - 00;20;28;23
Doug Parker
Oh, yeah.
00;20;28;26 - 00;20;34;18
Wayne Mulder
Good stuff. Now, motorcycles, off road bikes or road bikes or do you still add both?
00;20;34;20 - 00;20;38;24
Doug Parker
The these were Harleys in back then and had a bunch of dirt bikes having 200 bikers.
00;20;38;24 - 00;20;40;06
Wayne Mulder
A nice you still a.
00;20;40;06 - 00;20;43;16
Doug Parker
Lot of fun. Yeah. Get to.
00;20;43;18 - 00;20;58;23
Wayne Mulder
Yeah. Well, I still have an endorsement, but I remember the last time I touched one, so that's why I was curious. So let's segway from here. We're going to get to what you've created, which is amazing. But before we get to what you created, let's kind of talk a little bit about the problem that you saw.
00;20;58;25 - 00;21;17;15
Wayne Mulder
So let's go into a little bit of your experience with maybe looking at and investigating use of force, issues. One thing you mentioned that I found very interesting, we all know Granby Counter, and that's something we have drilled into us. And yet you were working before that case, was steering things. So, definitely kind of take us into there.
00;21;17;15 - 00;21;18;27
Wayne Mulder
And what you saw.
00;21;18;29 - 00;21;25;12
Doug Parker
Yeah. Even before Greg, Graham, Connor and, Illinois versus gates, which gave us totality of the circumstances.
00;21;25;12 - 00;21;26;09
Wayne Mulder
Right.
00;21;26;11 - 00;21;51;06
Doug Parker
Because when I first started writing a search warrant, there were only three categories you could write a search for, and it wasn't the totality the circuit says we didn't understand that, you had to make make it fit the box. Whether it was a concerned citizen, you know, informant, or from law enforcement. And so you had to get your probable cause to fit those one of those three categories.
00;21;51;09 - 00;22;14;20
Doug Parker
And the same way with work and use of force cases, I'd be called out and I'd go to the scene. And at that time, we process our own things at the time also. So, didn't have a crime scene tech. So it processed the scene, and then you interview the officer. And the standard back then was just if I could just get the officer to say I was in fear for my life, that was it.
00;22;14;26 - 00;22;40;03
Doug Parker
I mean, that was that was the standard. And so I take my report and give it to the disparity. And district attorney would look at it. We had disparities back then that we make decisions. Hey, it's a, justified shooting. I'm not doing anything with it. I don't think I even before all that, I don't had any case that, went to any kind of grand jury or or anything.
00;22;40;03 - 00;23;09;20
Doug Parker
So then when Graham Connor came along, of course, that was still back before the technology. So even though the decision was whatever year was made in, 86, I believe we probably didn't get the notice for 2 or 3 years later. As to how we're supposed to do things. And it changed and it became that objective reasonableness, you know, what would a reasonable officer do under the same facts and circumstances in the case?
00;23;09;23 - 00;23;35;17
Doug Parker
And, you know, law enforcement has given that I mean, that's a pretty special gift to law enforcement that we're you know, we weren't just in a different light, private citizen, it'll probably come down to, you know, an affirmative defense. I've got to get on the stand and tell this jury, shot or killed somebody. But we're given that, and especially here in Georgia, you know, officers can testify before Granger in in their defense.
00;23;35;17 - 00;24;10;07
Doug Parker
Now, there said cross-examination. No, I just saw. And so the mindset changed a little bit, but not until I really started, when I retired ten years ago, started working with, you know, these private legal services and and that, officers and which I paid into for 30 years, started working with them. They'd call me into to do the investigation and which led to a case down in Kingsland, Georgia, where young officer two years, late at night, saw someone that got in a car.
00;24;10;07 - 00;24;35;17
Doug Parker
They knew did not have a driver's license, had a suspended license. So there's our first clue that we need to be cognizant of as to that. You going to report, right. You know, what's your prior knowledge? Even before the the use of force. An incident had a chase. The car crashed, passenger runs in the woods, driver runs out.
00;24;35;24 - 00;25;04;01
Doug Parker
And we saw this on vehicle cam. Dash cam runs out 4 or 5 steps, runs back in the car, grabs something and then runs. And of course, we documented, you know, certain street lights were out. It's very dark. The body cam that this officer started chasing, the driver, you know, it's very dark. Oh, you have a sound basically, and end up having to shoot the guy because they followed the suspect got up on top, and it's not a person.
00;25;04;02 - 00;25;31;26
Doug Parker
Have been here since assessment. I hate that word. Person of interest. But, you know, they fall suspect grabbed at at the officer's gun and also had to shoot the suspect. So I'm doing the forensic walk through an officer because I got involved about a week later and I knew what he had already told his attorney. So I'm walking through and we go there at, you know, 12 or 1230 at night, whatever it was.
00;25;31;29 - 00;25;59;10
Doug Parker
And we're walking through and a mess. And he's telling me what he saw. And when we were at the point of where the suspect got out and ran in the woods, I said, well, and this is that person, he's a good friend of mine now. I said, well, what were you thinking when the suspect got out and ran in the woods this well, I didn't know the guy was going to double back and help his friend out, you know, run down in the wood line, come behind us.
00;25;59;12 - 00;26;17;14
Doug Parker
I said, well, why don't you put that in your report, right? It's why I don't think it was that important. And when the suspect, the driver gets out and runs back into the car, I said, Zach, what were you thinking there? He said, what? I just couldn't get a gun. I said, well, why didn't you put that in your report?
00;26;17;16 - 00;26;37;07
Doug Parker
They said, I didn't think it was that important. So after the second or third, I don't think it's that important. That's when the light bulb went off in my head, said, we've got to have some way for these officers to explain in the cognitive process their perceptions. You know what they knew prior, what was going through their mind as it and now it's not a big thought process.
00;26;37;07 - 00;27;01;09
Doug Parker
And it was just real quick, I thought, he's going to get a gun. Right. And you know, oh, the guy was going to double back. But all that needs to be in a report. I mean, not only for the agency to get a better report, but now we're talking about litigation because this officer was terminated and, it's station grand jury and in fact, did again, it did get indicted by a grand jury, really.
00;27;01;09 - 00;27;20;20
Doug Parker
And we had to go to we had to go to trial. Now, luckily, he was found not guilty. And that's a great thing. But it was a justified shooting. But the problem was he didn't make this officer didn't make a statement to the agency. He was immediately terminated and again fired. You know, for what they thought he had done.
00;27;20;20 - 00;27;43;15
Doug Parker
Because on the the problem with that case was on the body cam on his own body cam. He said certain things. And then when another deputy drove up, said, Zach, what happened? He said, well, God, well, we were we were fighting and he ran and I shot. Well, we had a bullet hole in the back, sort of the lower back.
00;27;43;18 - 00;28;04;11
Doug Parker
And that's all the investigators he had to go on. And that's why the department said, well, they shot him in the back, and that's not what happened. What what? And when he's telling me said, well, yeah, he ran, but he turned around home and raised up his arm right. Stuck his hand up that that's that again. What do you think he said?
00;28;04;11 - 00;28;25;29
Doug Parker
Well, I thought he had a gun at that point. That's why I shot. And it was it was eight rounds in 2.5 seconds. And if you've been to four sides training, you understand how that's important for one thing because 2.5 seconds, eight shots and he he didn't make times they were in a line. First shot was 90 degrees lateral into the chest, second shot third and on the ramp.
00;28;25;29 - 00;28;56;19
Doug Parker
So yeah there was a shot, but it was after he had turned. So, you know, they didn't have the didn't have the autopsy results immediately. So that's why he was terminated. And then later because he didn't make a statement to his agency. It was, indicted for VA, wanted to go for murder, you know, being voluntary and involuntary manslaughter and got not guilty on those charges after going through the trial and being able to explain it because how it works on these cases, you know, you hire experts to come in.
00;28;56;19 - 00;29;18;14
Doug Parker
I can't get up and testify because I'm biased. I'm working totally for the defense. So you bring in somebody that doesn't know anything about the case, you let them, you know, go through walkthrough, do another walk through the officer and get that cognitive responses. So that's that's a long story. But that's how it came about. I just knew there's got to be a way that we can get that information because the attorney wasn't there.
00;29;18;20 - 00;29;37;10
Doug Parker
I mean the attorney came out to the scene, of course, make sure everything was okay, but it was he did that officer didn't know. And I've run into a lot of them. They just don't know what to tell the attorney. What's important in a case, according to Graham Connor. Because that's what we're that's what we're given. It's. What did you see.
00;29;37;12 - 00;30;02;25
Wayne Mulder
In a few things, like with that illustration, is it really highlights? Well, it highlights the need for what we're getting into that you created because, just think of everything he went through, what his family went through, what I mean, the emotional toll of that, the physical toll of that just, you know, and financial toll, etc., but then also the chaos around officer involved shootings and everything that's going on in the moment.
00;30;03;02 - 00;30;23;29
Wayne Mulder
It's easy for these things to be missed. And, depending on agency policy and so forth, like that conversation between the two on body worn cameras, of course, what you would try to avoid, it's usually, you know, hey, go sit there. Someone sit with them. And by the way, don't talk. But that's it's not always so clean, you know, depending on what what actually occurred in the moment.
00;30;24;01 - 00;30;38;28
Doug Parker
Well, even even the questions that can be asked that, attorneys don't mind for their clients to answer, you know, safety and security questions, you know, hey, he threw the gun over in the pond, or, you know, there's another guy over behind those bushes that I had to fight, and he's over there. We need to get him help.
00;30;39;02 - 00;30;52;13
Doug Parker
Right. But an attorney wants to know, and that's why we document this, too. They want to know what you did and, you know, answer. And what questions were I asked. So that's the way, you know, we've got to document that also. They don't want any surprises. Attorneys.
00;30;52;13 - 00;31;06;20
Wayne Mulder
No no no they do that. So you see this problem and like any good, businessman, when you see a problem, you create a solution. So tell us a little bit about the solution you created and, what what that is come into being.
00;31;06;23 - 00;31;25;00
Doug Parker
Yeah. I just again thought there's got to be some way to document all this. I thought, hey, what about a three by five card? You know, a laminated card? I'll fucking carry it. You know, that's that's not today's world. And, a younger person would go, why don't you do an app? I said, yeah, that's. And so that's what I started working on for 2 or 3 years.
00;31;25;00 - 00;31;58;11
Doug Parker
Just started writing out the program, not not code and writing how the questions are to be formed. What what are their sponsors? So I just created a I it's basically a framework. It's a checklist. It's it's not they're not being suggested. We're not being leading. It's it's a way for an officer to, document how they looked, you know, and talk about even non-visible injuries, which, which became important in, in the Zach Presley case because he started having migraines because of his head hitting on the asphalt.
00;31;58;14 - 00;32;22;01
Doug Parker
And it wasn't seen by EMTs. And so we want officers to be seen whether you're hurt or not. Let's get your blood pressure. You know, let's get your vital signs and and explaining. Yeah. My my right shoulder is hurting a little bit because what happened in and again is based on this case, Zach gets on the stand and starts explaining this and eight and the district attorney, the assistant district attorney, even admonished him said, well, you know what?
00;32;22;01 - 00;32;29;28
Doug Parker
You've had two years to try to make this story fit what you want. It fit. Oh, just burn me up.
00;32;30;00 - 00;32;31;20
Wayne Mulder
I'm sure it should.
00;32;31;21 - 00;32;57;04
Doug Parker
But had had we documented that had had a document that immediately don't be seen by an EMT, document those things now, now, it's not a self-serving statement. Now it's no, it has been documented. So we eliminate that, you know, the self-serving part that we're or the the the what it may look like to a juror. Oh, you're making this up at this time, just like the Ada.
00;32;57;07 - 00;32;59;28
Doug Parker
Okay. Express to the jury.
00;33;00;02 - 00;33;23;29
Wayne Mulder
So a lot of it is just really documenting everything in the moment. It's my understanding that it has, both audio and video capabilities as well. It's got some other functionality in there to help doc help them document, but it also is an input. Have they either is that correct where they're not having to in a moment where all this has happened to do have you know, like you're not typing a report paper.
00;33;24;02 - 00;33;49;11
Doug Parker
No it's not and it's, it, it really is. It's checkboxes, dropdowns, it's audio. No, no video, the pictures. But and this is not to me, we're not talking about pictures at the scene. This is not a this is not an evidence collection. And in fact, we we're suggesting that this, this be used, you know, only with your attorney or, you know, go home and use it on the laptop.
00;33;49;18 - 00;34;07;21
Doug Parker
Don't use it on your personal cell phone if you're if you're worried about, you know, your phone being seized, which input data within the app is not on the phone itself. Maybe it goes to an encrypted cloud. So even if it is seized, there's they see the thin blue defend files, but they don't see the data that's been input.
00;34;07;24 - 00;34;32;11
Wayne Mulder
Okay. I was going to ask about that. I heard you mentioned in a previous interview that it goes to the cloud. Has there been any issues yet with like discovery where they're trying to grab the person on? Because I know that's probably one of the top fears that some people are trying to articulate. Has there been anything yet with case law or any legal issues with them trying to seize the phone based on this data have been entered into it?
00;34;32;14 - 00;34;54;11
Doug Parker
No not yet. We only launched in in July of last year. So we've we're just now out there brand new. But yeah it is. And instead of trying to type it in and you can't type in stuff but I know me. I'm not I'm not that savvy with texting and typing. So it's an audio button. So if you want to explain your you know your prompted you know tell us about any injuries.
00;34;54;17 - 00;35;11;01
Doug Parker
And so you can hit the button. And so you know my right shoulder or my left knee or whatever and explaining that. So now when this goes to your attorney, your attorney can hear and see anything that you've done. I can even take a picture of yourself, you know, later on or, or again, not anything at the scene.
00;35;11;01 - 00;35;29;11
Doug Parker
We don't want an officer doing anything at the scene in the way of documentation. Get away from there. Which hopefully you're going to be okay. But, you know, there's there's, there's a couple of types investigations. There's going to be the one where you shoot somebody or, you know, gravely injure somebody. Yep. And there's going to be an investigation.
00;35;29;11 - 00;35;49;25
Doug Parker
You're going to be separate right now. But then this, you know, developed it mainly for that. But then I realize if you just wrestle somebody to the ground, you better document it. Right. And so, yeah, go home, document this. And it's going to what we've seen is we anticipate also that's going to give a better report to the agency when you do your use of force report.
00;35;49;27 - 00;36;13;14
Doug Parker
So now the agency has a benefit of it of being able to have a better report, from this because those statements are going to carry they're going to stay with you. You know, your first statement, either criminal or sibling. Now, of course, a, compel statement can't be used against, you know, any kind of criminal trial, but those statements possibly can come up in civil litigation.
00;36;13;19 - 00;36;21;19
Doug Parker
So there again, if you have a better report from the start, you're much better off to three years down the road.
00;36;21;21 - 00;36;50;22
Wayne Mulder
Yeah, I think it's brilliant. And I really, when I first was introduced to it and that spent some time thinking about it, where I really saw a parallel. And this is just anecdotal to my, my own situation, but where I saw the parallel, as you think about how important these use of force incidents are when it comes to documenting, like you said, every little component of that moment and what your perspective was in that moment and where, and sadly, a lot of agencies are wholly inadequate there.
00;36;50;24 - 00;37;16;12
Wayne Mulder
But because, like DUIs are so heavily litigated, litigated, like we actually have a multiform, DUI packet that's very similar to what you're describing for that purpose, because they realized you need to know all these little things. Was it ringing where they standing, you know, all the little, nuances of that particular incident? Because this thing is definitely going to be litigated because almost every DUI they try to get thrown out or, you know, that they go down to reckless or whatever.
00;37;16;19 - 00;37;33;02
Wayne Mulder
So I really how much more important are these use of force situations? And to have something like this that documents every little piece of what the officer knew and, experienced in that moment, it's really sad it hasn't existed before this.
00;37;33;04 - 00;37;54;00
Doug Parker
Well, again, because of the cases, I mean, I always think if it happened to me when I get on the stand, I won't be flying everything. I don't want any information left out, because once you know you're convicted, it's hard for an appeal because you're either looking at, you know, error by the court system or new evidence coming up.
00;37;54;00 - 00;38;12;07
Doug Parker
So I want all of it out there at that time. So, so that we can have a so the jury if it is, if I go before a jury or, you know, just for the judge, you know, I want those people to know everything that was happened and what I was going through.
00;38;12;09 - 00;38;12;26
Wayne Mulder
Yeah.
00;38;12;28 - 00;38;14;21
Doug Parker
I was proceed.
00;38;14;23 - 00;38;34;27
Wayne Mulder
In the in these incidents, there may be obviously they're the type of incidents that are going to lead to potentially litigation. However, that being said, we all know the better written your report. Those are the especially from the investigative world. The more solid that report is, the easier the deposition, the less chance, the greater chances of a plea deal.
00;38;34;27 - 00;38;52;07
Wayne Mulder
You know, all those things come into play, maybe not so much in a use of force type incident, but the principles the same. The better written that report, the more detailed, the better the defense is going to look at it and be like, yeah, there's really not a lot I can do here. Other, you know, maybe in the depot try to discredit you, but that's going to be about the end of it.
00;38;52;10 - 00;39;16;27
Doug Parker
Right. And, you know, there is a difference between, you know, shooting somebody like this. Also, did, you know, eight times in 2.5 seconds or tasing somebody four times, you know, shooting somebody eight rounds in 2.5. That's one justification. I mean, you're shoot until the threat of stop tasers or, you know, see W's, you know, each pull that trigger is its own separate justification.
00;39;16;29 - 00;39;35;17
Doug Parker
Yes. And that's what I'm trying to get officers to understand. Yeah. Attention three times. But what changed from the first to the second to the third. And you better document each one of those in detail because it changed. Then you take somebody went down. Now they started getting up like pace. And again you know it wasn't comply with my commands.
00;39;35;19 - 00;39;38;19
Doug Parker
So you better explain all of them.
00;39;38;22 - 00;39;59;16
Wayne Mulder
And I think this is a great I think Taser is especially a great use for what you're talking about here. Conducted energy weapons. Or electrical weapons. I really do think it, is huge, because Taser does a really good job with collecting a ton of data, but that data isn't necessarily in the officer's favor because it doesn't explain the why.
00;39;59;18 - 00;40;18;14
Wayne Mulder
Well, what you're, creating here, helps provide the why you did what you did. Not necessarily what happened because I know I believe it even gets like heart rate. I tasers pretty phenomenal. But with what the thing actually records now. Plus now a lot of times they'll actually, work with the body worn camera where if the taser is deployed, the camera pops on.
00;40;18;20 - 00;40;25;25
Wayne Mulder
So there's some features there that it has. But, I definitely see a need for this.
00;40;25;27 - 00;40;30;08
Doug Parker
And yeah, that's great. But, you know, a line, if you're terminated that night, you have no access to any of it.
00;40;30;11 - 00;40;32;21
Wayne Mulder
Exactly, exactly.
00;40;32;27 - 00;40;49;11
Doug Parker
You're not allowed back in the in the department. You don't have access to the computer anymore to any of the videos it's all taken from. So now we're sorry. Now it's up to you to be able to tell your attorney exactly what happened from your perspective.
00;40;49;14 - 00;41;00;24
Wayne Mulder
Yep. And prayerfully, these kind of things help to eliminate, us terminating good officers for good use as a force. That would be a great thing if we would stop doing that in this country.
00;41;00;26 - 00;41;19;13
Doug Parker
The last couple of cases, I worked in South Georgia a couple months ago. They had the body cam and you because you mentioned body cam and the investigative agency called me up, said, Doug, I've got the body cam, but I need for your, you know, given your get what y'all attorneys, you know, that are working on this.
00;41;19;13 - 00;41;36;24
Doug Parker
And I tell you, I work with some great attorneys and I'm not an attorney. I'm just the investigator. But if this if this if your client would just come in and tell me and explain to me what happened in the video, I think everything's going to be okay. And that that was the result. The investigator just said, I'm not charging, you know?
00;41;36;24 - 00;41;59;00
Doug Parker
No, I've got to send it to the district attorney, but at least it from that point. And we went through with these officers with the app and they were able to explain very detailed what was happening, what the thought process was. One of the prior knowledge of this area was, you know, because it was a rougher area than what they are in in other areas explaining all that.
00;41;59;00 - 00;42;05;10
Doug Parker
And then the agency said, well, yeah, we're okay right now, but we'll send it to the district.
00;42;05;12 - 00;42;25;25
Wayne Mulder
Yeah. I think it's a it's a great need. And I really love what you've created. Who is your primary, focus customer then just to be clear for the listener, are you, is your customer the end user, the specific officers? Is it the agency? Is it both? And I know you can't touch a little bit, but the goal is, is that it's not on agency cell phones.
00;42;25;27 - 00;42;27;01
Wayne Mulder
Right. I'll let you take it for.
00;42;27;01 - 00;42;49;21
Doug Parker
Me and it it. Yeah. Well, we're going and we're, looking at both, so we're looking at an agency because agencies by, you know, certain things for their officers about some of these legal services, you know, whether it be PDA, FOB and math. My my thing is get those first you need you need that legal representation first.
00;42;49;23 - 00;43;09;06
Doug Parker
Yeah. We're not taking the place of that at all. And I don't I don't know if my investors would would like to hear that, you know, so get something before you get us. But that's really what the officers need first is that. But yeah, we get looking at agencies, to buy for all of their, officers, deputies.
00;43;09;09 - 00;43;20;14
Doug Parker
And then the individuals, let's say you can't purchase it. And, you know, individuals can sign up for it also. But yeah, as law enforcement, we go for security personnel and we're looking at other verticals. Officer.
00;43;20;17 - 00;43;27;25
Wayne Mulder
Okay. Very good. Yeah, I was going to well, I'll get to that question here in a minute. Let me first ask, what has been your feedback that you've got so far?
00;43;27;27 - 00;43;50;04
Doug Parker
It's a it's a learning process. You know, this is brand new. So it's you know, it's like, oh now what is this again? I mean, we've been to conferences, you know, ICBM Dallas and South Carolina, Georgia. And they stop and it's the eyebrows are raised. You know, tell me what this is again. And then after about five minutes it you know, they're amazed.
00;43;50;07 - 00;44;11;10
Doug Parker
We had a professor that wrote his thesis on Graham Connor. When I talked to this professor and explained to him, he goes, you done what I've been trying to get officers to do for years, is to be able to explain what you're given. And grandma. Yeah. And so, yeah, the response is wonderful as far as you know.
00;44;11;13 - 00;44;28;24
Doug Parker
You know, where do we get the money? We're you know, it's a budgetary process. We got to wait till, you know, first of the year or middle of the year, whatever the budget cycle is. And you know how are we going to come up with the money? But, it's just like I knew when I bought in the, you know, PBA, you know, legal representation.
00;44;28;24 - 00;44;37;26
Doug Parker
I never used it, but it was the peace of mind that I had had I been involved in something, I knew I had good legal representation.
00;44;37;28 - 00;45;01;01
Wayne Mulder
Yes. In fact, that's literally what I wrote on, one of my next points I was going to make is this app really is a peace of mind app. That is the best way to put it, because it really from the fears that the officers have, their families have and so forth. This really is all about helping you through what, you know, can be a very traumatic it really is for the officer, a very traumatic moment in their life.
00;45;01;07 - 00;45;06;14
Wayne Mulder
And it doesn't have to be. And this, kind of helps provide some of that peace of mind.
00;45;06;16 - 00;45;25;07
Doug Parker
Yes. And, and again, I would have, you know, if I was still and I still carry. So, Yeah, I realize I could be in a restaurant and have to use force. But for the officer again. As opposed to shooting somebody as opposed to just, you know, maybe somebody have to drag them out of the car.
00;45;25;09 - 00;45;46;26
Doug Parker
That doesn't require you to call your legal representation. Possibly. You know, but you better document. And that's what we're hopefully people will look at this and say, this is a good way for me personally to document in my defense that, you know, I'm not going to investigated, you know, something that minor, but yet, you know, two years they have time to see you.
00;45;46;28 - 00;45;47;18
Wayne Mulder
Yeah.
00;45;47;21 - 00;45;55;12
Doug Parker
And I'll wait till, you know, the very last, midnight on the last of the two years to file that suit.
00;45;55;14 - 00;46;12;20
Wayne Mulder
Yeah. And sadly, we've seen it over and over again. What is next for Thin Blue Defend? I know you hit on it a little bit, but it sounds like you might be looking at some other markets, maybe security, the private sector or some of those things over time. Is that next on the agenda or what else do you have.
00;46;12;23 - 00;46;44;08
Doug Parker
It is and what we're going to modify for certain, jobs within law enforcement, you know, corrections, that's a different set of equipment because you're able to upload all your equipment in there. And actually, after the incident, you can pick which piece of equipment you used in the gym and explain the justification for that. We've also I've got a in there to where whatever equipment you had, and let's say you had to chase somebody when you pre-load all your stuff in and you put in the weight of each piece of equipment.
00;46;44;10 - 00;47;02;01
Doug Parker
So now at the end of the incident, I can click on, you know, I had on my bill my gun here. And that extrapolates out to, you know, 8.2 pounds. And that's important in a trial because now I can tell the jury I had an 8.2 pounds running a half a mile chasing this guy, and he had, tennis shoes and shorts.
00;47;02;07 - 00;47;03;08
Wayne Mulder
Right.
00;47;03;10 - 00;47;25;14
Doug Parker
That's huge. Right? Yeah. And you can bring in experts to show I only have so much energy because of the extra weight. He has a lot more energy. Or he or she has a lot more energy than me. And, and that's why when I, you know, I was so winded, but I had to fight for my life while I was more winded than the person was on top of me.
00;47;25;17 - 00;47;46;10
Wayne Mulder
Okay. Yeah. No, I think that's great. And I love what you're working on and what's coming next, because I think these are all important. And you mentioned corrections. My brother actually is a sergeant in corrections in, Louisville. And, yeah, it's it's huge. And those poor guys, they're always in use as a force. It's just, you know, it's a different environment and it's, much more common in there.
00;47;46;10 - 00;47;56;27
Wayne Mulder
It seems like, maybe not, obviously officer involved shootings. Hopefully things have gone really bad if that's happening in a jail. But there's a lot of, other uses of force that they're involved in all the time.
00;47;57;00 - 00;48;07;21
Doug Parker
Yeah, I'm involved with several use of force experts, and that's what they're finding out that the the rate and the increase in use of force within the prison system is going up.
00;48;07;24 - 00;48;09;04
Wayne Mulder
Yeah.
00;48;09;06 - 00;48;24;11
Doug Parker
And yeah, again, just you better document you have to put somebody in a chair and that a spit shield over them. And because you're probably going to get sued because that's what they do in the prison system. Let's say they, they have their own jailhouse lawyers to help them out with that.
00;48;24;14 - 00;48;27;12
Wayne Mulder
Exactly. And nothing but time to work on the case.
00;48;27;14 - 00;48;28;29
Doug Parker
So, Daniel.
00;48;29;01 - 00;48;47;23
Wayne Mulder
Well, this has been great. Doug, I really appreciate your time on this. I got one final question for you. Taking it a little bit different direction is my question that I ask everybody who comes on the show. What is the one takeaway, the one thing that law enforcement officers can do that's going to make a difference in their personal lives?
00;48;47;26 - 00;49;18;06
Doug Parker
And that's the interesting question, because what I've learned in this, with this use of force, I happen and still investigating and talking to these officers, is their mental health and what they're having to go through. And, because I've seen these officers and I think I saw something to where it was like, I think the 67% of the problems officers have, you know, with having to deal with stuff psychological mentally is not from the incident itself.
00;49;18;09 - 00;49;43;11
Doug Parker
It's from everything that goes along with it. You know, the litigation, the waiting, you know, having to deal with a family, you know, your your sons or daughters, your wife, your, you know, whomever, you know, your parents and having to deal, you know, because you're a police officer. I have one, a trooper. He was, a trooper one day and he was terminated and charged with murder, you know, within a week.
00;49;43;14 - 00;50;12;01
Doug Parker
I mean, had I don't see how an officer deals with that now. So. Yeah, what you do and people like yourselves that trying to help these officers, I mean that that's that's tremendous. I mean, they need they need that just as much as anything else because I've seen these officers now just recently, officers get in trouble, start drinking, get caught, DUI, get caught with other petty crimes, and it's all a result of these incidents.
00;50;12;03 - 00;50;34;10
Doug Parker
Yeah. And so you got to have something just as important to document this, but something to take care of yourself. Somebody you can call. Got a police have that, you know, waiting also to get in touch with somebody because this is devastating. Yes. And I'm seeing that now firsthand on the, on the private side.
00;50;34;12 - 00;50;55;10
Wayne Mulder
Yeah. No, I you are absolutely right. And obviously, this show and shows like it and some of the great people we were talking about offline, I mean, it really is such, such an important need. And sadly, you know, officers go out there and think they, you know, they do the best they can. And then if something gets looked at differently, like you said, they're let go before the end of the day.
00;50;55;10 - 00;51;05;10
Wayne Mulder
And what really suffers is that individual. And it's even more sad when in the end, maybe they didn't do anything wrong either, which eventually they're vindicated. But how long does that. Yeah, but.
00;51;05;12 - 00;51;21;17
Doug Parker
It's that waiting. And it's just like I tell everybody, my boss call me on the radio one day on Friday at 4:00. You need to be in my office on Monday morning. I said, no, I'm coming right now. It's, you know, I'm not to wait the whole weekend and we worry. What do you want to talk to me about?
00;51;21;19 - 00;51;42;05
Doug Parker
We're going to handle it right now. So. No. All this this. Yeah. Being charged and having to wait I mean, this that is gone and it does. And it and it really affects the minds of these officers. And got to make sure that there's help immediate because these officers now I've had one where yes I'm cut off from the department.
00;51;42;05 - 00;51;59;26
Doug Parker
So now I don't have the department count. So I'm plus I don't want to talk to the department counselor anyway because I'm afraid of, you know what I'm. What am I telling the heck? I don't know if they're going to tell the chief or the chair. Yep. So, yeah. Haven't haven't you better have this better be your go back.
00;51;59;26 - 00;52;04;00
Doug Parker
Also, you know, having somebody that you can call immediately.
00;52;04;03 - 00;52;23;29
Wayne Mulder
Absolutely. And we're seeing the same thing in the mental health space where we're giving them resources that are outside the department because of the stigma associated with it. You know, I, I'm not saying any agencies are doing anything wrong. Hopefully none of them are. But the officers feel like that may be happening. And because of that perception, you know, unfortunately that becomes the reality.
00;52;23;29 - 00;52;41;05
Wayne Mulder
So Doug, thank you so much for coming on. For all the listeners. I want to make sure that go to Thin Blue defend.com thin blue defend.com. I'll have that linked up in the show notes as well. Plus I'm going to kind of go through that a little bit if you're watching this on video on YouTube or Rumble so that you can see it firsthand.
00;52;41;05 - 00;52;45;28
Wayne Mulder
And I really want all the listeners to check it out. Doug, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for coming on.
00;52;45;28 - 00;52;53;25
Doug Parker
thank you for what you do and having me on to to get the word out because it is a, it is a learning process because we are brand new.
00;52;53;28 - 00;52;57;28
Wayne Mulder
Well you are absolutely welcome and I look forward to working more together in the future.
00;52;58;00 - 00;52;59;14
Doug Parker
Yes, sir. Thank you so much.