PODCAST: What is Post Traumatic GROWTH and why it matters to you in LAW ENFORCEMENT with John O’Brien | TIR 067
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What is Post Traumatic GROWTH and why it matters to you in LAW ENFORCEMENT with John O’Brien | TIR 067
Meet this Weeks Guest: John O’Brien
John is a Ph.D.-level trained Counseling Psychologist who has been counseling individuals and teaching students since 1996. In his work as a therapist, he specializes in the treatment of substance abuse, grief, and trauma. He is adjunct faculty member at the University of Maine at Augusta, teaching courses in psychology and addictions since 2000. In addition, he provides coaching and consulting to businesses around executive assessment, leadership development and health and wellness through Activate Success.
He is an ICF ACC Certified Coach and Certified Health and Wellness Coach through the National Board of Health and Wellness Coaches. He is a former president of the Maine Psychological Association and has served on many national committees. He currently serves at the co-chair of Continuing Education for the APA Society of Consulting Psychologists.
In his many years as a teacher, He has become skilled at explaining complex psychological constructs (aka psycho-babble) into clearly understood concepts. He provides audiences with opinions and insights that are grounded in science and well-researched psychological theories.
Show Notes from This Episode
We know first-hand the struggle of trying not to take the job home with us and let it affect our families. We know the toll the law enforcement career can have on marriages and relationships. And we also have been frustrated by the lack of authentic leadership in our agencies. This Law Enforcement Podcast was designed to help you overcome the mental toll of the law enforcement career and the negative effects it can have on your personal life.
Hosted by active-duty law enforcement, we bring you two weekly podcasts. On Thursday, in The Interview Room we sit down with amazing guests who provide actionable advice on leadership, mental health, and relationships from their lived experiences. On Monday, in Morning Roll Call, you and I enjoy a cup of coffee and discuss current events, offer encouragement, and discuss practical steps for achieving the life we were meant to live.
Go Deeper:
Step 1: SUBSCRIBE to the Podcast wherever you are streaming it.
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TOPICS discussed:
· Stress
· Self-care
· Foundational self-care
· Flow
· Intentionality
· Mindfulness
· Alcohol, Caffeine, nutrition, and addiction.
· Cycle of dependance.
· Coffee
· Post-Traumatic Growth.
· Post-Traumatic Stress.
· Activate Success.
· Business Coaching.
CONNECT with John:
· WEBSITE: https://activatesuccess.org
· LINKEDin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-o-brien-806270bb/
· TWITTER/X: @ActivateJohn
· BOOK: Treating Addictions With EMDR Therapy and the Stages of Change 1st Edition by Nancy Abel LCSW LADC (Author), John O'Brien PhD (Author)
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• EMAIL me your feedback: Feedback@OnTheBlueLine.com
• Get the eBook, “How the law enforcement makes you cynical and what you can do about it” by Wayne Mulder.
On The Blue Line was founded and is operated by active-duty law enforcement to fulfill the mission of helping law enforcement overcome the mental health toll of the profession to become better leaders & protectors on & off the job.
We strive to create a world where law enforcement life expectancies are equal with the general population.
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TRANSCRIPTION OF EPISODE. Please note this is a new service we are offering and there will be spelling, grammar and accuracy issues. This transcription is offered as a convenience to our listeners, but at this time it is not guaranteed to be accurate.
00:00:09:03 - 00:00:27:21
Wayne Mulder
Welcome, my friend, to the On the Blue Line podcast for law enforcement. I'm your host, Wayne Mulder. This is the podcast that helps law enforcement officers overcome the mental health. Told the profession to become better leaders and protectors on and off the job. This week in the interview room, I sit down with guest John O'Brien. He's the founder of Activate Success Org.
00:00:27:23 - 00:00:33:02
Wayne Mulder
Another episode of the On the Blue Line podcast starts now.
00:00:33:04 - 00:00:38:24
Because, you know, when.
00:00:39:03 - 00:00:41:14
Wayne Mulder
You break the law, if you decide to do this, we're going.
00:00:41:14 - 00:00:46:06
John O'Brien
To hold you responsible. You are the only good thing. It's someone's.
00:00:46:06 - 00:00:48:24
Wayne Mulder
Worst day. That is a privilege for a police officer.
00:00:48:24 - 00:00:54:10
John O'Brien
At the very least, you could honor the sacrifices of police officers and their families.
00:00:54:16 - 00:01:21:09
Wayne Mulder
We have the ability to save the Republic. And that's right. Things are going to get better. I love the intro of the song. So if you're not following us on Twitter or X or X formerly known as Twitter or whatever you want to call that platform, join us there on the blue line in the number one ad, on the blue line, in the number one, that is the social media that I am most active on.
00:01:21:11 - 00:01:42:14
Wayne Mulder
Other than that, everywhere else we're at on the Blue Line podcast. But I am less active on all of those. And if you're enjoying the content, especially if you're enjoying the content, please be sure to leave us a rating and review if you're on iTunes or on one of their platforms that allow you to do that. And then any time you share this content and just help get the word out there, it's a huge help.
00:01:42:16 - 00:02:00:08
Wayne Mulder
As you know, there are so many podcasts these days that you just kind of get lost in the noise and anything you can do if you're enjoying the content to help get it out to more people will help ensure that this will be around for a length of time without taking any more time. Let me tell you a little bit about this week's guest.
00:02:00:10 - 00:02:32:03
Wayne Mulder
He's a Ph.D. level trained counseling psychologist who's been working with counseling individuals and teaching students since 1996. He's worked as a therapist and specialized in the treatment of substance abuse and grief and trauma. He's an adjunct faculty member at the University of Maine in August at Augusta and is teaching courses in psychology and addiction since 2000. In addition, he provides coaching and consulting to businesses around the Executive Assessment Leadership Development in Health and Wellness through his business.
00:02:32:03 - 00:02:59:01
Wayne Mulder
Activate success. And as you can imagine, all of those topics are very applicable to exactly what we do in law enforcement. That's why once I learned about what he was doing, I wanted to have him on because you're only going to benefit from this conversation. He's got, as you heard, lots and lots of experience, but in his many years as a teacher, he's become skilled at explaining complex psychological constructs or a.k.a. psychobabble into something that is clearly understood.
00:02:59:02 - 00:03:24:08
Wayne Mulder
And the concepts are done in a way that only a teacher or someone with the heart of a teacher can do. You're going to enjoy this podcast because it's a lot of things that we've discussed before from stress, self-care, flow, intentionality, mindfulness, but even things like post-traumatic growth. We always hear from post-traumatic stress disorder, but we even talk about what is post-traumatic growth and what does that mean for us in the law enforcement career.
00:03:24:08 - 00:03:31:09
Wayne Mulder
So you're going to enjoy this without taking any more time. Here's this week's guest, John O'Brien. Well, John, welcome to the show.
00:03:31:11 - 00:03:33:22
John O'Brien
Thanks so much, Wayne. It's a pleasure to be here.
00:03:33:24 - 00:03:40:10
Wayne Mulder
You know, it has taken us a little bit of time to finally get this together, but I am so thankful it did.
00:03:40:12 - 00:03:46:12
John O'Brien
Yes. Well, persistence pays off, as I always like to say. And that was true for our conversation and the planning here.
00:03:46:14 - 00:03:55:22
Wayne Mulder
Absolutely. And like with everything we'll discuss today, sometimes you just got to push through the obstacles. So maybe maybe we're starting with the best information we can give the listener.
00:03:55:24 - 00:04:04:07
John O'Brien
Absolutely. We have a real world example of how persistence pays off, that we're able to have this conversation right after five months, five months of planning.
00:04:04:09 - 00:04:11:10
Wayne Mulder
That's right. So there you go. For the listeners, that's the secret. Well, let me start with you, as I do with everybody.
00:04:11:13 - 00:04:12:09
John O'Brien
Okay.
00:04:12:11 - 00:04:14:00
Wayne Mulder
Coffee or tea?
00:04:14:02 - 00:04:15:19
John O'Brien
Oh, coffee. Hands down.
00:04:15:21 - 00:04:19:21
Wayne Mulder
Now. Black coffee, or do we have to do some tweaking to it or what? What kind of coffee?
00:04:19:23 - 00:04:25:09
John O'Brien
We got some tweaking. We got some tweaking for sure. As far as copies concerned, not tweaking of another kind.
00:04:25:12 - 00:04:27:20
Wayne Mulder
I guess we have to be clear with the conversation.
00:04:27:21 - 00:04:46:00
John O'Brien
All right. So, yes, we are. Cream. A little cream. Great. Cup of coffee. Not your average coffee like, you know, Starbucks or some sort of, you know, higher end coffee, but unfortunately, limited to two cups of caffeinated coffee per day.
00:04:46:02 - 00:04:52:13
Wayne Mulder
Yeah. I mean, I'm in the same boat. As much as I love talking about coffee and thinking of coffee, I have to limit myself as well.
00:04:52:15 - 00:04:58:11
John O'Brien
Yes, indeed. Well, and that may be this is a foreshadowing of one of the things we may talk about for the benefit of your listeners.
00:04:58:15 - 00:05:05:14
Wayne Mulder
Wonderful. I'm looking forward to that. But let me back up and ask then, where is your favorite place to have that drink?
00:05:05:16 - 00:05:32:13
John O'Brien
Favorite place? I think usually on the deck at my mom's house, which is we're fortunate that she bought a home years ago with my dad on the water. It was a little cottage that they've added on to. So now when I go to visit mom and, you know, do my time of having to visit mom, I have to suffer and sit on the deck right by the ocean and and enjoy a cup of coffee.
00:05:32:13 - 00:05:34:13
John O'Brien
So I'd say that's my favorite place.
00:05:34:15 - 00:05:39:24
Wayne Mulder
That's absolutely wonderful. Obviously not specific area, but what part of the country are we talking?
00:05:40:01 - 00:05:40:21
John O'Brien
The Northeast.
00:05:41:01 - 00:05:42:00
Wayne Mulder
Okay, very nice.
00:05:42:02 - 00:05:44:23
John O'Brien
I'm up in Maine, so that's where I where I inhabit.
00:05:45:00 - 00:05:52:24
Wayne Mulder
So that is some absolutely beautiful country. I've had a chance to spend a little time outside Bangor at a lake property. So absolutely beautiful.
00:05:53:01 - 00:06:04:21
John O'Brien
And I'm glad to hear that you pronounce that correctly, because sometimes people say Bangor, Maine, it's like, no, Bangor and you did it perfectly. When you look at that, you are you are an experienced mainer. It's clear.
00:06:04:23 - 00:06:17:09
Wayne Mulder
Thank you. I don't know if we're quite that far. Be it a boy from Indiana and stuck in Florida, but I appreciate that. So let me ask you, John, do you have a best or worst travel story?
00:06:17:11 - 00:06:26:11
John O'Brien
I'll go. Well, of course I have both, but I'm going to stick with best. Best? Which would you like me to go beyond that or just say that I have a best one?
00:06:26:13 - 00:06:28:19
Wayne Mulder
Well, if you have a best one, we would love to hear it.
00:06:28:21 - 00:06:56:10
John O'Brien
Aha. Okay. Well, I would say that I had the opportunity to do my dream vacation of motorcycling in the Alps. Wow. And I love. I've always enjoyed motorcycling. I had my share of skiers and whatever else on it, but I had the opportunity to go to Europe, meet a friend over there and ride a Harley through the Alps.
00:06:56:10 - 00:06:58:08
John O'Brien
It was absolutely amazing.
00:06:58:10 - 00:07:08:23
Wayne Mulder
That is wonderful. And probably one of the best answers I've had to that question. That is absolutely amazing. And as one who also enjoys motorcycles, I can just imagine how beautiful that was.
00:07:09:00 - 00:07:19:16
John O'Brien
Yeah, I mean, it was the old roads, which were very twisted pretty. So there was enjoyment and kind of terror all mixed together. But that's part of what made it a great vacation. Yes.
00:07:19:18 - 00:07:27:20
Wayne Mulder
You know, I think just in the opening to the show, we have given like three major life lessons. So hopefully the listeners are paying attention to this.
00:07:27:22 - 00:07:30:22
John O'Brien
We're on a roll right now.
00:07:30:24 - 00:07:36:23
Wayne Mulder
Do you have a favorite modern nonfiction book? So a nonfiction book, but one that's newer.
00:07:37:00 - 00:07:45:10
John O'Brien
Oh, let's say nonfiction. So. Well, is it okay if it's a theoretical book?
00:07:45:12 - 00:07:46:13
Wayne Mulder
Absolutely.
00:07:46:15 - 00:08:18:18
John O'Brien
Okay. So I was I'm interested in neuroscience and the impact that neuroscience has on us and on our functioning. So there's a book that's I think it was by David Rocca, I believe called it Coaching with the Brain in Mind. And it that's one of the areas that in which I practice is doing coaching of leaders. And so I've been always interested in the impact that neuroscience has on us and on leadership.
00:08:18:18 - 00:08:21:13
John O'Brien
And so that's that's one of my favorite books.
00:08:21:15 - 00:08:26:17
Wayne Mulder
Very good. I will look that up and I'll also be sure to link it up and just K.S. listeners are going to check that out as well.
00:08:26:19 - 00:08:27:21
John O'Brien
Yeah.
00:08:27:23 - 00:08:41:18
Wayne Mulder
So similar to the coffee question, but a little bit different tweak to it. Where is that place that brings you the most peace, that place you go to to just kind of stop, breathe and enjoy life?
00:08:41:20 - 00:09:09:11
John O'Brien
Well, I mean, we may end up talking about this, but sometimes when people get into what are called states of flow, which is where they're very much really, very mindful and relaxed, I would have to say for me, one of those places is when I'm out on a motorcycle ride, usually once a week on Sundays, I take off and just ride for a few hours out west of the city of Portland here and just go out to the country and just have a chance to just kind of relax.
00:09:09:12 - 00:09:15:09
John O'Brien
Even though I have to be kind of alert at the same moment. You're very, very present and it's also very peaceful.
00:09:15:11 - 00:09:23:05
Wayne Mulder
So that's a that's amazing integrating answer and I can just think of motorcycles in Maine and I'm thinking of moose, but that's a different conversation.
00:09:23:07 - 00:09:24:02
John O'Brien
That's a whole other.
00:09:24:04 - 00:09:40:06
Wayne Mulder
That's a whole other conversation. Yes. But to that point, it's funny how many guys that are real big into like Brazilian jiu jitsu and those kind of fighting, they'll answer that question with their time on the mat is one of the places they kind of stop breathing, enjoy life because it has both of the elements you just referenced.
00:09:40:08 - 00:09:42:04
John O'Brien
Exactly. Yeah.
00:09:42:06 - 00:09:53:02
Wayne Mulder
Well, let's some let's just kind of introduce you to the audience. So start as far back as you want, kind of your story. And what kind of led you maybe your origin story and what led you to what you're doing now.
00:09:53:04 - 00:10:31:13
John O'Brien
Okay, well, I'm born and originally raised in Massachusetts. I've always been a from the Northeast and so was in elementary and half of high school in Massachusetts. And then we moved to Maine when I was in the middle of high school. And that's part of an important inflection point in my story. But I'll go on to say that I finished my undergraduate and master's at Boston College and Tufts University and worked as a high school guidance counselor for two years.
00:10:31:13 - 00:11:17:02
John O'Brien
So I was just a few years older than the students. As Mr. O'Brien, the guidance counselor, and then went back to, as I like to call it, gradual school to get my doctorate. That's well, some date, right? So I hit the Midwest for four years and then in finishing my doctorate, we have to do an internship placement. So I went to Texas, where I was in the Dallas area at the VA, too, to finished my doctorate placement, where I learned important things like how to say all excuse me, y'all, all y'all and fixin to and other important Southern isms and then moved back to Maine, where I've been practicing since here since 1996.
00:11:17:04 - 00:11:18:06
John O'Brien
Wow.
00:11:18:08 - 00:11:23:14
Wayne Mulder
That is amazing. And you're still teaching and so forth as well, right? Are you still adjunct faculty, faculty and so forth?
00:11:23:16 - 00:11:54:07
John O'Brien
Yes, I've been adjunct faculty at Umaine Augusta for I'm just finishing my 23rd year. I just finished that. I've been a clinician in there doing private practice psychotherapy for 25 years. I started when I was three. That's why it's been that many years. I'm not really that old. No, maybe I am. And then also I've recently been interested in the overlap between psychology and the business world and applying it specifically to leadership.
00:11:54:07 - 00:12:19:11
John O'Brien
And that's why I've cut and trained as a coach. And so I have a business that's really the primary emphasis of my work these days called Activate Success, wherein I do professional speaking and leadership coaching with a specific emphasis on stress management. And if I may, I'll just allude back to what I said about that inflection point, because that's really an important part of my story.
00:12:19:14 - 00:12:44:04
John O'Brien
Yeah, which is that when I was 15, my dad, who was an executive himself, had a really serious heart attack and almost died. I was the one with him at the time of the heart attack, but it was one of those. So it was one of those kind of quiet, quiet attacks. But we knew he had to get some medical attention, so he was never able to work again after that.
00:12:44:04 - 00:13:15:17
John O'Brien
He died young at the age of 63. So, you know, unfortunately, his lack of self care was something that I saw and was certainly part of my motivation to go into the field of psychology. And it's no surprise now that I've circled over, having worked with many people in a variety of fields, but now is circling over to try to work with leaders like my dad to hopefully help them be able to manage their stress more effectively than he did.
00:13:15:19 - 00:13:39:00
Wayne Mulder
Yeah, that is that is amazing. And when I first was looking over some of the stuff you were talking about and you were on your website and so forth prior to us talking about it, it was it was an interesting to me how when you talk about leaders in this business community, you know, guys like your dad, who, you know, they have these high level positions or so forth in these businesses and the crossover to that and what we do in the law enforcement environment.
00:13:39:02 - 00:13:39:09
John O'Brien
Or.
00:13:39:09 - 00:13:57:06
Wayne Mulder
The military environment. Just real quick for the listeners, hopefully you're all listening to the end of this episode and you can get to the show notes below, but it's activate success dot org, I believe, dot org. Correct. And we'll be giving that again at the end and I hope you're sticking with us. Let's go a couple different directions there.
00:13:57:06 - 00:14:02:05
Wayne Mulder
But I'd first be curious since I think one of the common denominators between the two is stress.
00:14:02:07 - 00:14:03:18
John O'Brien
Absolutely.
00:14:03:20 - 00:14:13:11
Wayne Mulder
What is that kind of we all know stress, stresses, right? Like even before we were talking here, we were talking about the 15 things I'm trying to juggle. And listeners, please don't do as I do. Do as I say.
00:14:13:13 - 00:14:15:19
John O'Brien
But exactly, exactly.
00:14:15:21 - 00:14:17:00
Wayne Mulder
But we all do that, right?
00:14:17:00 - 00:14:18:03
John O'Brien
John Yeah.
00:14:18:09 - 00:14:23:11
Wayne Mulder
So what does this look like? Like you, as you know, what does this look like? And then kind of take us from there?
00:14:23:13 - 00:14:57:01
John O'Brien
Okay. Well, what I would say is that many people think of stress as distress, as difficult, painful, overwhelming negative things, which certainly that stress, you know, conflict with a colleague or or with a life partner stresses in the work environment. So there's a lot of stress that comes from those sources. But there's also something called youth stress like euphoria.
00:14:57:01 - 00:15:35:03
John O'Brien
EU that those are positive things like you may have mentioned that you just, if I may say this, just bought a house, right? So buying a house. So when people get married or welcome a child, that these are positive things but embedded in that positive thing can be a lot of difficulties and sometimes even a positive thing ends up in the longer term becoming having its own difficulties isn't kind of relationships or certainly sometimes buying a house.
00:15:35:04 - 00:15:57:20
John O'Brien
These days, especially it's not so simple. Exactly. Very true. So it's supposedly something that's very joyful. But when you are competing with a billion other people to get this one house and putting in offers and getting rejected, it's a lot of difficulty in that. So people tend to underestimate, I think, the impacts that even positive things can have on their lives.
00:15:57:20 - 00:16:17:16
John O'Brien
Because if we look at the actual definition of stress, it's our reaction to any change in our lives. Okay, so we are creatures of habit. We like things a certain way and that when we go outside, what is the normal routine? That's a stressor and we're going to have a reaction to that.
00:16:17:18 - 00:16:34:20
Wayne Mulder
Yes. And so taking that one step further, because when I think of like law enforcement, obviously I do a lot of what I do because I look introspectively, right? I look at myself and you know what I what I'm going through. And I think it's true in the business world, too, because prior to law enforcement, I put clients in the ground green side up.
00:16:34:20 - 00:16:46:14
Wayne Mulder
I was a landscaper for years, ran a landscaping company. So. So I am familiar with that. Some of the business stress, not a high level executive stress, but you're still making payroll every Friday, which is stressed.
00:16:46:16 - 00:16:48:01
John O'Brien
Yes, absolutely.
00:16:48:03 - 00:17:07:01
Wayne Mulder
So there So my question would be, in the law enforcement environment, there's obviously stress that's intrinsic to the job, Right? There's what we deal with out there in society. The type of call you may go to the unknown of it, the radio. And then you have stress that comes from above, which is something I talk about a lot about on here.
00:17:07:01 - 00:17:30:06
Wayne Mulder
Because honestly, when you when I talk to law enforcement officers, it isn't so much the stress of someone shooting at them that bothers them. It's the stress of what administration requires and those kind of internal stresses to the agency. And then where I would form it into a question is, so you have the stress of the job, you have the internal, if you would, to the agency stress, but then you have these life stressors.
00:17:30:08 - 00:17:50:20
Wayne Mulder
Is there is this then compounding like is this kind of like a tidal wave? Because one thing that I notice is some people are like it's it's when things aren't as crazy that all of a sudden you can see that dam break, if you would. That's when all of a sudden the reality of all this stress that's built up over the years kind of hits them.
00:17:50:20 - 00:17:53:16
Wayne Mulder
Is that an accurate picture?
00:17:53:18 - 00:18:16:08
John O'Brien
Well, it and it's interesting. You're kind of weaving in, I think, a few things here, which if I may, it's sort of two things I hear is the the kind of stress response and what happens in the stress response. I can talk a little bit about that. But I think the other thing that you're talking about, too, is the accumulation of stressors over time.
00:18:16:10 - 00:18:43:22
John O'Brien
And and let me just talk about that for a minute, because I think you're on to something that if it does, it can all pile up. Okay. And that, you know, maybe people have a very challenging position in law enforcement or maybe a difficult beat that they have to work or difficult supervisors they're dealing with. But their home life is stable.
00:18:43:24 - 00:19:06:02
John O'Brien
And so they always know that they come back to that despite the fact that that work environment is really stressful. They know they can go back to that or maybe they have a difficult time in their home life at present. But in fact, the work environment, you know, while challenging they have a good colleague, your relationships and they they have good relationship with the people in their neighborhood that they work.
00:19:06:02 - 00:19:33:08
John O'Brien
So it's it's not as their actual source of stress is more their home life. I think the problem is when either it's in the in the work life or in the home life, or a combination of those stressors build up to a certain level that, as you said just now, the dam breaks. Yeah, it's like even just and sometimes it's the people are not practicing very effective stress management skills, but.
00:19:33:10 - 00:19:37:07
Wayne Mulder
Which is where I'm going with all this. That's, that's the world I want to end up on.
00:19:37:09 - 00:20:04:14
John O'Brien
Right. Okay. So yeah, we're headed there. We're on the road. I knew we would be that that sometimes the thing is, sometimes people are practicing the right things. I was talking to someone this morning who is doing all the right things, but we talked about the fact is sometimes this even the most skilled people practicing all those self-care things that that we talk about, that the environment is just too stressful.
00:20:04:16 - 00:20:23:11
John O'Brien
Like even practicing everything people need to sometimes stress is just too much. And it and it does then start to affect them. And so then they have to figure out, do we need to change my job? Do I need to change my approach to the job to take time off for a bit? Like what? What drastic measures perhaps do I need to take?
00:20:23:13 - 00:20:26:20
John O'Brien
So even the most skilled people can be affected by stress?
00:20:26:22 - 00:20:42:01
Wayne Mulder
No, that makes perfect sense. If you don't mind, this may be a good place to kind of talk. Is there like one or two? I'm sure there's many, but is there one or two things that we can offer on the conversation of stress to kind of I guess here's what goes through my mind when I hear this, right?
00:20:42:01 - 00:21:05:14
Wayne Mulder
Because especially nowadays, which is great, there's a lot of content and a lot of information out there around these issues, and there's a lot of information around the negative side of it, like where this leads to ultimately, right? So it's a lot of things on that literally save lives because you have suicide like we long in. You know, what happens if this is never addressed and so forth.
00:21:05:14 - 00:21:27:04
Wayne Mulder
So either major health issues like we start like you described, or you get into things, you know, like suicide, which is kind of how this podcast got started when we lost a fellow deputy. So when I started in 2019, we lost I lost a deputy a month later in the district that I was working in. So that kind of became a Y to.
00:21:27:04 - 00:21:35:01
Wayne Mulder
And since that time, our our agency, which is a midsize agency, but we've since lost another deputy. So I've seen the end results.
00:21:35:03 - 00:21:35:11
John O'Brien
Yeah.
00:21:35:17 - 00:21:50:13
Wayne Mulder
Of what happens with unchecked unmitigated there. So I'm going to lead to a different question but just backing up to what are just one or two of those things that we can start with throwing out to them and obviously we'll refer them to some areas that they can go from there.
00:21:50:15 - 00:22:24:08
John O'Brien
Well, one one immediate thing that comes to mind is that people need to know for themselves what what are their signs of stress like? Because I can lecture all day about things like get chronic headaches, muscle tension, stomach aches, feeling like a sense, maybe some some level of panic or anxiety, you know, maybe falling into starting to recognize people are using alcohol too much.
00:22:24:10 - 00:22:45:06
John O'Brien
Like what? It's important people know what are their own personal signs of stress and is there a progression for them so that they can identify that, okay, these this is a symbol to me or this is a sign to me that my stress is progressing as an example, one of the things that I know is used to be that I would lock my keys in my car.
00:22:45:08 - 00:23:08:11
John O'Brien
Okay, so it happens, right? It does. Right. But now with the wonders of technology, I have one of those magic things that it never like. That can never happen because, you know, my keys can't get locked in. But it's when I recognize that, okay, I'm being I'm like a little bit more accident prone. Or I go to leave and it's like, wait a minute, I have my computer with me back in the house.
00:23:08:11 - 00:23:40:24
John O'Brien
Get my computer, go back out to the car. Then it's like, Oh, wait a minute. Oh, my glasses with the back in the house that like then it's like, okay, John, stop. Like, yeah, this, this is just, you know, this is too much going on. Stop. Reflect on what's, what's happening. And I can talk more about that. But so the point here is know what are the signs you have of stress and then what their progression is so that then you also then can get into like what are the go tos that you either need to do or do more of?
00:23:41:01 - 00:24:01:23
John O'Brien
And I would just say that and this is from a colleague, Dana Gionta, this is not but but she's written a book about stress. And what she said is the number one mistake that people make in regard to stress management is that as they get more stressed, they give up their coping mechanisms because they don't have time for them.
00:24:02:00 - 00:24:13:09
John O'Brien
They tell themselves, I don't know, I don't have time to go to the gym. I just I don't have time to prepare a meal or for healthy meals or whatever. So that and that then further compounds the situation.
00:24:13:11 - 00:24:17:13
Wayne Mulder
Yeah, I know that actually preaching to the choir on that.
00:24:17:15 - 00:24:20:03
John O'Brien
I write.
00:24:20:05 - 00:24:40:09
Wayne Mulder
I can definitely see the the brilliance of that. What one of the things I hear is so there's this whole idea of balance life and I know you've talked about things such as that too, and I know that that plays a lot in what we're talking about here. But the issue that I often hear when I talk to people in that term, balance comes up.
00:24:40:11 - 00:25:03:16
Wayne Mulder
There's like, well, if if by balance you mean I need to do this, you know, I have kids, I have work, I have maybe they're active in church or community event or, you know, they've got 400 things on their plate and they're like, okay, well, you get 33 minutes and 33 seconds and you get, you know, that's a balance That's also not realistic because that kid wants more than 3 minutes at 33 seconds.
00:25:03:18 - 00:25:04:12
John O'Brien
Right.
00:25:04:14 - 00:25:13:01
Wayne Mulder
So what does that look like? Is that kind of balance achievable or what do we mean when we say balance kind of as a starting point for the stress management?
00:25:13:03 - 00:25:35:05
John O'Brien
Well, I hear people talk about and I'm glad to hear you talk about it as balance living as opposed to people talk about work life balance. Right. And that makes it sound like work isn't a part of life and it's an important part of life. And it's often for people in certain professions. And I think that's true of law enforcement, and it certainly is true in my field in terms of the mental health field and working in psychology.
00:25:35:05 - 00:25:58:18
John O'Brien
It's a part of our identity. It's not it's like, you know, the old what was the the army thing? It's not just a job, it's an adventure. Well, I mean, certainly law enforcement work. And I can tell you my job, too. It's an adventure sometimes. Yes. But so it's but it's part of our identity. So, you know, I think that they also concept of balanced living.
00:25:58:20 - 00:26:31:00
John O'Brien
I don't know that we can come up with like, well, here's the way to do it. Like, here's the rubric, but rather, I think just recognizing you have to a colleague of mine talked about balance living like you have to figure out if how your life is like an art exhibit and you can only put so many things in the exhibit in an art museum, and you have to figure out what's the focal piece, what are the other pieces around it, What do you want to contain in your exhibit?
00:26:31:02 - 00:26:51:02
John O'Brien
And then what? What do you just not have room for? And maybe there will be times in our lives and I certainly have had them as well, where it's like there's too much in my exhibit, like it's end of semester and like it was a few weeks ago, I was just I was at a conference. I'm finishing teaching three classes.
00:26:51:07 - 00:27:10:16
John O'Brien
I'm trying to see a few clients while I'm at this conference who were in a crisis. So, like, there's just there's a lot going on. There's too much going on. But this this is where life sat right now. And I know, but I'm not going to do this forever. Like I'm out of balance. But I have to do this for right now.
00:27:10:16 - 00:27:26:23
John O'Brien
But then I have to try to get myself back to balance as soon as they can. The point really is that sometimes things just will get out of balance. That's the reality. We can't always be in this perfect balance, but just to know I'm out of balance and I got to give some things up, perhaps, or reprioritize.
00:27:27:00 - 00:27:45:14
Wayne Mulder
And I think and correct me if I'm wrong, kind of what we're talking about, it's an often maybe overused word, but is this whole idea of intentionality, it's this idea of living intentionally rather than just kind of going with the flow and, you know, whatever will happen will happen. You know, there are moments of that like our conversation, right?
00:27:45:14 - 00:27:53:08
Wayne Mulder
We talked about, you know, this conversation was going to be that way, but it's predicated on all sorts of intentionality that came into this moment.
00:27:53:10 - 00:28:16:22
John O'Brien
The other word I would throw in there, which I think is an overused word, but is mindfulness by being mindful. Yes, a lot of stuff out there about mindfulness and some of which, you know, I think can be quite practical. But people sometimes give mindfulness a bad rap or don't really think big. I'm not doing yoga, so I'm not doing any of that mindfulness stuff, okay?
00:28:16:23 - 00:28:20:14
John O'Brien
And I say no, but there's there are ways to do that, quite practically.
00:28:20:16 - 00:28:45:22
Wayne Mulder
I was quite literally going to ask this question next, and I was going to open it with that exact statement. I was like, worried. I was like, because I have on here mindfulness or awareness and I wanted to kind of get your idea or your feedback on this idea of mindfulness because you're right, they instantly go to the yoga studio or they're thinking, we're going to have some bells and maybe some candles are burning and maybe that's fine.
00:28:45:24 - 00:28:52:06
Wayne Mulder
Yeah, Living on where you are in Maine, that may or may not be, you know, you might get some weird looks on both sides, but.
00:28:52:10 - 00:28:53:24
John O'Brien
Yes, yes, indeed.
00:28:54:01 - 00:28:57:06
Wayne Mulder
But what is it mean to you when you use that word?
00:28:57:08 - 00:29:36:19
John O'Brien
A-ha. Well, a great definition. I learned many years ago in dialectical behavior therapy, which is a form of treatment. I, i, I do for people that have something called borderline personality disorder. But mindfulness is the awareness of the inner world of thoughts and feelings and the outer world of actions and perceptions. So in any moment we can focus internally or externally, and depending upon what's going on that moment, it may make sense to be focused more externally or internally.
00:29:36:21 - 00:29:56:10
John O'Brien
The other piece I would add, this is a lengthy definition, unfortunately, but the other piece that I would add is that mindfulness is not about being perfectly focused. I was talking to someone about this yesterday. Mindfulness is simply being aware of where is your awareness?
00:29:56:12 - 00:30:01:01
Wayne Mulder
Interesting. So it really isn't even focus at all.
00:30:01:03 - 00:30:26:05
John O'Brien
That necessarily because, well, it it's trying to be bringing your focus to something and somedays that whether it's to your breath or, you know, your body in space or where you're sitting or to a certain sound, some days you may be pretty able to do that in your mind won't be very busy, but some days your mind may be bopping all around and people like, Well, I'm failing mindfulness today.
00:30:26:05 - 00:30:36:07
John O'Brien
Or I've heard people say, Well, I can never be mindful because my mind's all over the place. And it's like, Yeah, but you're noticing the fact that your mind's all over the place, which in fact means you're mindful.
00:30:36:09 - 00:31:06:00
Wayne Mulder
Okay, now is it just as simple as like, is it an internal thing where I just kind of do it? So is it the noticing of it that makes it the mindfulness, or is it some action of, okay, I'm going, you know, I'm going to concentrate on this or I've got you know what I mean? Is it is it that kind of intentional focusing, which again, I'm using that word, or is it just really kind of the realization that, hey, all these balls are in the air and I'm realizing they're all in the air?
00:31:06:02 - 00:31:09:18
Wayne Mulder
How would you describe that dichotomy, if you would?
00:31:09:20 - 00:31:37:12
John O'Brien
Well, I think you have laid that out quite nicely when and the fact is it's both okay. And now people who are mindfulness purists may be horrified. Hopefully none of them are listening. They may be horrified at hearing me say this because some people would say mindfulness is really the process of bringing your focus of attention to a sound, to your thoughts and kind of in a meditative way.
00:31:37:12 - 00:32:08:21
John O'Brien
Yes, right. Yes. So mindfulness being the larger category, something like meditation or yoga or focusing on breathing could be those are strategies of mindfulness. This is the way that I think about it. But so so there are some that would say that it's a task that you do that is about mindfulness. But there also is the whole concept of just being aware of what you are doing or what's happening for you internally or what's going on externally.
00:32:08:23 - 00:32:18:07
John O'Brien
That is about being mindful and it's about the word you used is awareness. And that's exactly right. So it can be either okay to use.
00:32:18:09 - 00:32:37:14
Wayne Mulder
In when we're talking about task focused focus than that could be even things like we talked about early on with the AMA or, you know, some sort of like hitting the mats or being on the motorcycle or in all of those moments, that could be a task that works well for the individual rather than, say, yoga or whatever, whatever's best for them.
00:32:37:16 - 00:32:38:23
Wayne Mulder
Is that accurate?
00:32:39:00 - 00:33:06:24
John O'Brien
Yes, there are. And the people describe mindfulness in different ways, but there's one type of mindfulness practice that is called participate fully. Okay. And that's so the the mindfulness that I have taught people are the what skills and the how skills, what skills are observing, which is, in short, trying to just notice some physical sensation and notice some sensory experience.
00:33:06:24 - 00:33:27:10
John O'Brien
But have no words in your mind, like don't not label like, Oh, what's that sound? That sounds like, you know, a bird or whatever. No, it's just literally trying to observe and keep your mind blank, which is perhaps it's it's allegedly the most elementary and to me, the most challenging.
00:33:27:12 - 00:33:30:01
Wayne Mulder
As you say, I find it extremely right.
00:33:30:03 - 00:33:51:18
John O'Brien
I'm a wordy person. I want to, like, be labeling things. So there's that. Thank goodness. The next level is describe mindfulness, where we can use words in our mind to be focused on noticing a sound and noticing what we think of in a non-judgmental way, and then finally participate fully, which is being fully with an activity, mind and body in an activity.
00:33:51:22 - 00:34:25:01
John O'Brien
So like your guests who have talked about may or people, whether maybe they're doing yoga, maybe they're running that, you know, or again, motorcycling or something that people relive where they get into those states of what's called flow, where they're very much with that process. So that's those are the what skills of mindfulness and the how skills of mindfulness include trying to do it non-judgmental, which is about not judging yourself like, Oh, see, I can't do this mindfulness stuff.
00:34:25:01 - 00:34:50:10
John O'Brien
I knew I could never do this mind this is ridiculous. Or doing a mindfulness task I was doing when in when I was first learning in a group and we had to do this mindful walking in silence, I felt like I had joined a Cult when we were doing this and we're walking along and I happened to glance ahead and I saw a colleague of mine who was just she looked very focused and I found myself going, Oh, Emily's just she's doing this so well, I can't even believe I can't do this stuff.
00:34:50:10 - 00:35:08:16
John O'Brien
She's like, perfectly. So I was again, comparing and judging. So not just mentally one mindfully is noticing when our mind is jumping around different places, like, you know, you start in one room and you're going to write checks, but then you realize, Oh, this pen has run out. I need to go to get a pen in the kitchen.
00:35:08:16 - 00:35:22:18
John O'Brien
Then you go to the kitchen, then you're in the kitchen and you go to get a pen. But then you see, oh, this that pen that's left over from last night. Then you start washing the pen. But then you think, Wait a minute, we don't have it. It's just shop two. Then you're off to the garage to get the supply of just soap and on and on.
00:35:22:18 - 00:35:24:11
John O'Brien
I'll stop there, but you get the idea.
00:35:24:13 - 00:35:25:24
Wayne Mulder
Yes, sure.
00:35:26:01 - 00:35:28:22
John O'Brien
Really? Yeah, right. Go ahead.
00:35:28:24 - 00:35:33:20
Wayne Mulder
Well, I was going to say you're you were describing yesterday for me. So anyway.
00:35:33:22 - 00:35:53:04
John O'Brien
Right. So we can do that behaviorally or we can do that in our mind. Yeah. So one mindfully is about trying to bring your mind back to like recognize, Oh, here I go behaviorally, or here goes my brain might just, it's like, it's like a sheepdog. It's like you've got to bring you might just choose to bring your mind back Bring your mind back.
00:35:53:06 - 00:36:17:12
John O'Brien
And the last piece of mindfulness I'll just mention is something that's called effectiveness, doing what works, being effective. So maybe you're trying to do I'm going to sit and just listen to the birds and that's what you've decided to do for mindfulness practice. But you do that for like 30 seconds and you're like finding yourself irritated by that rather than like, I'm going to I got to stick with this because this is what I chose.
00:36:17:13 - 00:36:35:09
John O'Brien
It's like, now I'm going to go do some I'm going to go out for a motorcycle ride. It's like, do what works. And that could be true also interpersonally, which I won't get into. But that's a whole other conversation that figuring out not what's right, not getting stuck in what's right, but focusing on what's effective.
00:36:35:11 - 00:36:54:06
Wayne Mulder
I love that. I think there's a lot to that. I bring so many people on here with such great information, and I think sometimes it gets overlooked that in maybe correct me, of course if I'm wrong, but I think to me one of the biggest lessons is do something. Do what works for you. It's better than doing nothing.
00:36:54:07 - 00:37:04:12
Wayne Mulder
It's being like, you know, there's so many options. I'm not going to do anything. That's like the worst decision you can make the best decisions, find the thing that works for you and do that. Start there, whatever that is.
00:37:04:14 - 00:37:32:10
John O'Brien
And I would add to that and do it with whatever frequency and intensity you can. Years ago, I remember getting myself into this mindset about, well, if I can't go to the gym for at least 45 minutes, it's not worth going. Right? And now if I can do a walk for 15 minutes or if I can do a workout for 30 minutes or like don't get caught up in these extremes, like just even do a little bit.
00:37:32:10 - 00:37:39:00
John O'Brien
I can do a five minute walk. You could do a two minute walk, like do whatever you can. Don't get caught up. And it's like all or nothing, I think.
00:37:39:02 - 00:37:56:10
Wayne Mulder
Yeah, I think that's wonderful. And that's certainly something that I've had to deal with over the years. So that's that is wonderful. Let me I want to switch gears just a little bit because we talked a lot about stress. And what I think I want to do is just there's a million ways we could go. And some of those million ways we'll do next time.
00:37:56:10 - 00:38:20:11
Wayne Mulder
But I think what I'm thinking is what about trauma? How does trauma and stress differ from each other? Because that's another word that gets used a lot. And again, when I think about the law enforcement career and kind of the analogy I was providing earlier, you have stressors, the things that are you know, and we have good stress that you stress that you were talking about and we have the negatives, distress, so forth.
00:38:20:13 - 00:38:34:12
Wayne Mulder
But going how does stress and trauma differ? Because I think sometimes those terms can be used somewhat interchangeably by non people like me that don't know to write.
00:38:34:14 - 00:39:01:00
John O'Brien
But people sometimes use like, oh, stress and trauma, like they just lump them together. What. So I would say stress being the larger category that I mentioned before, we talked about kind of our natural reaction to any change in our lives and that there's sort of varying levels of stress, a trauma and a traumatic experience being events that occur.
00:39:01:02 - 00:39:27:22
John O'Brien
It the the original definition when I first started to practice was that trauma was an event, quote, outside the range of normal human experience. Okay. But the and so really at that time we were thinking about simply by combat, right. As that was really the one category we would think of as something that was a traumatic experience. But now we know that it certainly is about the experience of combat.
00:39:27:22 - 00:39:55:15
John O'Brien
But there are so many other experiences that are actually, unfortunately part of everyday life now that can lead people to ultimately have a traumatic experience, which is really any experience in which a person experiences some sort of threat, threat to their personal integrity, threat to their life, or they witness someone else that's the threat to someone else's life or someone else, you know, dying or being injured.
00:39:55:17 - 00:40:30:10
John O'Brien
And that there are a variety of things, certainly combat and sexual assault, abuse, domestic violence, but things like car accidents now have been recognized as a source of trauma, illness, heart attack and stroke have been identified. Now as a potential source of stress. So it's it's really these major events that sometimes are a part also of the everyday life and work of people.
00:40:30:11 - 00:41:00:19
John O'Brien
Certainly people in law enforcement will be called to shootings and domestic violence and murder scenes and all kinds of things. Where they are then also witnessing the after mouth of that. So I think, you know, unfortunately, law enforcement individuals are really, you know, as we always say, kind of in the line of fire, but also in specifically in terms of encountering trauma at a much greater level than people in other lines of work.
00:41:00:21 - 00:41:28:02
Wayne Mulder
Yes. Yeah, I would certainly concur with that. So trauma, how does it I guess, to two sides of it, because one is kind of the positive, like how do we what do we do? Because these incidents are very much part of law enforcement, right? Like, for instance, just take death alone. Anyone that dies within it passes away within the county who is not either under hospice care or in a hospital.
00:41:28:02 - 00:41:45:22
Wayne Mulder
Law enforcement is going to it. So just in general, law enforcement sees a lot of death in the span of their career than most people do in the civilian population. It's just a fact of the nature of it. And that's aside from traumatic deaths, you know, your suicides and so forth that are obviously part of what they go to.
00:41:45:24 - 00:42:07:08
Wayne Mulder
So in my opinion or in my thinking, there would be some level of compounding like I was talking about earlier. That kind of happens over the years. So I guess my two questions here is, first of all, are there things we can be doing from like a self-care that kind of helps from these things leading to other negative effects?
00:42:07:10 - 00:42:39:23
Wayne Mulder
And then how do these negative effects like what are some of the signs? Is it going to be very similar to the stress ones we were talking about, where it's like stomach issues and so forth, or what are we talking about to where we're differentiating between trauma and stress, or is there so much overlap? You really don't differentiate like I guess what I'm trying to get to is so to the listener right now who's in law enforcement, who is maybe sitting in their patrol car as we talk and they're like, you know, I'm going out to these scenes and stuff and there's all this talk about PTSD and there's all these talk about all these
00:42:39:23 - 00:43:00:07
Wayne Mulder
different things, and yet they're like, at the same time, I'm fighting with my wife at home. So let's talk to that guy or that gal who's listening right now. What are some of those things to, first of all, recognize? But what can we be doing from day one of the academy that keeps us from getting to the point to kind of like what I alluded to earlier, where the dam breaks.
00:43:00:09 - 00:43:01:06
John O'Brien
And.
00:43:01:08 - 00:43:07:04
Wayne Mulder
I know that's a lot like I just gave you can do a six hour lecture, a five minute answer, a chair call.
00:43:07:04 - 00:43:41:03
John O'Brien
John No pressure, John But can you answer that in a sentence or two, please? So. Well, first I would say what it's in, it's in common with stress or as a way to make someone resilient to stress or trauma, which is the basics self-care, that if people are trying to balance their, you know, exercise, I mean, you know, people hear this all the time, but I can't emphasize it enough, getting a good amount of exercise.
00:43:41:05 - 00:44:05:14
John O'Brien
The CDC guidelines are that we should be getting 150 minutes of moderate exercise per week and at least two days of strength training per week. That's the minimum that we're supposed to get. I'm curious, I don't know if I've seen any surveys like how many Americans are actually getting that, because I think that's a very small percentage. But that's that's the minimum that we're supposed to be.
00:44:05:14 - 00:44:36:14
John O'Brien
So making sure you're doing that yourself and seeing that, I encourage people to see that as taking their medicine. Like see that as medicine. That's good for you, right? And that's needed. It's not optional. It's essential. So exercise, sleeping on average 8 hours and making sure you have good nutrition. I won't go down this pathway very far, but I'm just going to we talked earlier about caffeine and so many people overuse caffeine and then they find themselves jacked up.
00:44:36:14 - 00:44:58:11
John O'Brien
So then they need to use alcohol to wind down in the evening and then they end up using more alcohol, which means they're more sedate in the morning. They need more caffeine. So that's all part of nutrition. So you've got to be physiologically balanced and as much as possible. It's kind of psychologically balanced. So so that's the foundation.
00:44:58:13 - 00:45:47:05
John O'Brien
There's if people are able to have that foundation and can approach their work with kind of resilience skills, which just to say for a minute that sometimes people go through traumatic incidents and they actually come out with the positive effect, it's something called post-traumatic growth, which is positive results that come from it going through a traumatic incident. And some of those positive effects can be things like a greater appreciation for life and a deeper connection in relationships, and again, appreciation for relationships and an increase in spirituality and a deepened sense of personal meaning in life.
00:45:47:05 - 00:46:14:12
John O'Brien
And that may or may not translate into religiosity in going to church or temple or whatever. But but certainly an intent increase in spirituality. And I think I believe that that's something that people can cultivate in their lives are the focusing on some of those things, which then can potentially serve as a buffer about that, that traumatic events that they will encounter, because not everybody who goes through a traumatic event will develop post-traumatic stress disorder.
00:46:14:14 - 00:46:33:24
John O'Brien
It's only a small percentage, and fortunately, a larger percentage of law enforcement, I think by statistics are correct. And you may know more about this than I do, but I think the last time I saw something like 40% of people who are practicing law enforcement, who are kind of officers on duty have post-traumatic stress disorder.
00:46:34:01 - 00:46:59:15
Wayne Mulder
I've heard similar statistics. Yes. Yeah. And that's kind of one of the things that we've been that that's part of why I'm asking this question, because I think sometimes sometimes I think there's this thought. And I know speaking personally that you kind of have well, it's just it's just being a cop. It's just being a cop. So, you know, Yes, I, you know, maybe beat my wife's head off or I yelled at the kids, I get the dog or, you know, whatever.
00:46:59:15 - 00:47:00:15
Wayne Mulder
I didn't get really get the.
00:47:00:17 - 00:47:02:12
John O'Brien
But just just to be clear.
00:47:02:14 - 00:47:19:21
Wayne Mulder
But, you know, whatever it is that goes on, then I can just see where someone internalizes that and they're like, well, it's just just a cop. And then it kind of falls into the cycle that you described with the caffeine. And then, you know, they end up on third shift or whatever, some other drinking caffeine most of the day, and then it's a day off.
00:47:19:21 - 00:47:45:12
Wayne Mulder
So now it's alcohol most of the day, you know, and this vicious cycle that just gets started. And I think that's kind of what I'm trying to also get to is so we have this self-care baseline or the foundation, which I like how you put that. And I on the foundation, I think it's important to note, as you said earlier, do something like do the best because I can already hear the kick back.
00:47:45:12 - 00:47:52:04
Wayne Mulder
I'm like, I'm not going to get 8 hours sleep, so okay, I'm done here. You know, I can hear that actually already.
00:47:52:06 - 00:47:56:22
John O'Brien
Remember, get what you can people, maybe not 8 hours, but get what you can. Okay.
00:47:56:24 - 00:48:13:08
Wayne Mulder
Exactly. So then to that end, like you said, with, you know, rates as high as, let's say, 40%, like at what point do they need to be going in? Should we be reaching out to talk to somebody or is it all within that self-care realm or what kind does that look like from a practical level?
00:48:13:10 - 00:48:50:18
John O'Brien
Well, I think perhaps it's first, if people can identify that they are impacted by by trauma, you know, I would imagine and this is certainly true in law enforcement work from what I know, and having worked with a lot of cops over the years, but also in other lines of work, a lot of people who like work in ERs or people who are first responders are the first responders aside from police that they just become accustomed to like, you know, like dead bodies or, you know, all these horrible injuries.
00:48:50:18 - 00:49:30:21
John O'Brien
And it's like they kind of end up like shrugging it off. So, oh, that's just kind of part of the job when they fail to recognize the impact that's having. Yes. And I think the most important thing is to recognize that trauma and PTSD is not simply something reserved for people coming back from a deployment, that people who are doing just doing their job, and many people who just kind of it growing up in a difficult environment where they encountered a lot of a, you know, emotional or physical abuse or maybe even sexual abuse, not understanding that the impact of that can be trauma.
00:49:30:21 - 00:49:54:01
John O'Brien
So I think there's a lot of power in at least identifying, oh, like I'm a trauma survivor and I'm impacted by this. And I think a lot of people assume or struggle with the fact that if they say that or they recognize that, well, that's automatically identifying weakness and that and that starts something they want to be associated with or that that stops them, they want to talk about.
00:49:54:03 - 00:49:55:17
Wayne Mulder
Especially in these communities.
00:49:55:19 - 00:50:39:04
John O'Brien
Correct. Especially in the law enforcement community. So, you know, if a department can actually create an environment where people still feel safe, going to certain, you know, colleagues may be who can be peer support for things like that or people know where is the confidential resource through an employee assistance program, or can people maybe go to their doctor and get a referral kind of confidentially to someone in the mental health field who can who has expertise and who can be of help to them in regard to working on trauma and its impact?
00:50:39:06 - 00:51:08:11
Wayne Mulder
Yeah, no, that's wonderful. I really think I like how you said it because there's just so much information here, but really it boils down to taking action for the individual. You know, deciding, being cognizant enough to recognize that, hey, you know, I'm in a career, I'm around these things, these things are happening, and then being willing to just kind reach out and to start with some of these foundational things, as well as then being willing to reach out.
00:51:08:16 - 00:51:14:03
Wayne Mulder
And just for the listeners, I will be sure to put some things in the show notes as well, because there are some.
00:51:14:05 - 00:51:14:21
John O'Brien
So.
00:51:14:23 - 00:51:26:09
Wayne Mulder
Some that we've had on the show before, who they can always reach to out across the country as well. So John, we're kind of boiling down time a little bit here. If you don't mind. I'm going to ask you my question. I ask everyone who comes on the show.
00:51:26:11 - 00:51:27:04
John O'Brien
Okay.
00:51:27:06 - 00:51:35:05
Wayne Mulder
What is the one takeaway, the one thing that we as law enforcement officers can do that's can make a difference in our personal lives?
00:51:35:07 - 00:51:39:01
John O'Brien
I well, wow, one thing. Ooh, Well.
00:51:39:03 - 00:51:44:11
Wayne Mulder
You have so much good stuff here. I got to leave them with one or they're going to be all over the map.
00:51:44:13 - 00:52:19:22
John O'Brien
Right. So I would boil it down to this. Make sure that you have regular appointments. And I would say regular, like at least just once a year with your primary care doctor in which you get a realistic assessment of your health because people in law enforcement and I'm talking probably more often men, but also women too, but more often men men historically do not go to the doctor because that's why I don't need a physician.
00:52:19:24 - 00:52:54:17
John O'Brien
And and that what ends up happening is men don't go to the doctor until they get into their forties, when all of a sudden they have a health crisis that causes them some sort of major setback or maybe they die young. So so we could we could wrap all of this around the idea that if you have a primary care doctor with whom you have a good working relationship and you're you're doing regular checkups, that's going to help you do a realistic evaluation of your stress level, of your coping and how you can be different in terms of the way you're approaching it.
00:52:54:19 - 00:53:10:11
Wayne Mulder
John I think that is great advice and honestly, that is I have not had a guess since 2019 that's even come close to that idea. And I think that is fundamental because you're absolutely right. I've seen it around people in my circle and so forth that they just put these things off and then sadly, all these things accumulate.
00:53:10:11 - 00:53:20:11
Wayne Mulder
And it probably is why the the life expectancy for law enforcement is substantially lower than the general population.
00:53:20:13 - 00:53:23:02
John O'Brien
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:53:23:04 - 00:53:27:24
Wayne Mulder
John, I appreciate it. What is the best you've got? You are a fountain of information.
00:53:27:24 - 00:53:29:04
John O'Brien
And I'm hoping.
00:53:29:06 - 00:53:44:01
Wayne Mulder
You're going to be able to come on again because there's a million different directions I want to go. But for now, what is the best way that people can connect with you other than obviously we have activate success dot org folks, any social media or anything like that where anyone can get with you?
00:53:44:03 - 00:54:11:15
John O'Brien
Yes, you can find me on LinkedIn. John O'Brien on LinkedIn. If you just do a search and it will come up and under activate success. That's where I'm really focusing my social media presence right now. I'm not I've not been tweeting a lot, get upset about or Instagram or any of these other things. So I buy a sweet spot really right now is through the work I'm doing on, you know, coaching and professional.
00:54:11:15 - 00:54:22:02
John O'Brien
I'm speaking through my website and then stuff that I'm posting and writing on LinkedIn. So I've got a blog. If people are curious on Activate success as well as stuff that I post on LinkedIn.
00:54:22:04 - 00:54:26:13
Wayne Mulder
Very good. I will have all those linked up. John, thank you so much for coming on.
00:54:26:15 - 00:54:31:08
John O'Brien
This and thanks so much for having me. Wayne I'd be happy to come on again and it was an enjoyable conversation.
00:54:31:10 - 00:54:50:13
Wayne Mulder
Wonderful. I'm looking forward to it. All right. How was that? I hope you enjoyed this week's episode. Thank you for watching. Thank you for listening. Remember, every episode is available in video at Rumble in YouTube. I do prefer you go to Rumble because there will be a day that me and YouTube will part ways. But for now, they are one of the largest ones out there.
00:54:50:19 - 00:55:11:04
Wayne Mulder
However, our last episode got throttled because they didn't like the fact we were talking about law enforcement topics. So anyway, me and YouTube are on a very short partnership, if you would, for lack of a better term, But definitely check us out on Rumble. But for the time being, it's also available on YouTube. Every episode has the full show notes with the links to everything.
00:55:11:04 - 00:55:31:18
Wayne Mulder
We discussed that on the blue line .com for its last show notes or. As always, if you just go down to the notes below, whatever platform you're watching this on, all of those links are there and will take you right to the website and right to the show notes. PAGE Thank you all. Thank you so much for listening and continuing to watch and for telling others about what I'm trying to build here.
00:55:31:20 - 00:55:39:03
Wayne Mulder
I will see you next Monday in Morning Roll Call. I'm going to see it Thursday in the interview room. But in the meantime, I'm going to see you out there on the blue line.